Spirituality and Character in Fraternities...

[Kevin]

Wow..not to hijack, but the Bible says nothing about abstaining from drinking. It just talks about drunkenness being a sinful thing.

I've actually heard some people talk about wine in the Bible actually being grape juice. How freaking ignorant is that?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Wow..not to hijack, but the Bible says nothing about abstaining from drinking. It just talks about drunkenness being a sinful thing.

I've actually heard some people talk about wine in the Bible actually being grape juice. How freaking ignorant is that?

I don't think it's a matter of ignorance - more that they're saying that the word that meant "wine" really properly translated means "juice from grapes." For the record, I don't agree, but I'm just saying it's not necessarily something someone's pulling out of the air to make it sound like wine = bad.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I don't think it's a matter of ignorance - more that they're saying that the word that meant "wine" really properly translated means "juice from grapes." For the record, I don't agree, but I'm just saying it's not necessarily something someone's pulling out of the air to make it sound like wine = bad.

I think it's an indication of ignorance of the times though. VERY fresh grape juice might be ok, but you have to ferment the stuff to keep it safe to drink. (There's a reason why people drank beer and not water throughout much of history and it's not for the taste.)

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I don't think it's a matter of ignorance - more that they're saying that the word that meant "wine" really properly translated means "juice from grapes."

It has to be remembered that until 1869, when Thomas Bramwell Welch came up with a method of pasteurization that prevented the fermentation of grape juice, "grape juice" was simply newly-pressed wine that hadn't fermented yet. There was no way, short of drinking it, to keep it from fermenting (or spoiling).

The reality is that most of the Hebrew or Greek words usually translated as "wine" in English Bibles suggest at least some level of fermentation. Nevertheless, there are those who argue that when the Bible refers to "new wine," for example, it is referring to juice of the grape that hasn't fermented yet.

It should also be remembered that when Alexander conquered Palestine, the people there adopted the Greek custom of diluting wine with water.

[Kevin]

Luke 21:34 -- "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares."

Romans 13:13 -- "Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying."

Ephesians 5:18 -- "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit."

1 Timothy 3:8 -- "Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre."

... it seems the wine back then might have had alcohol in it.

[MysticCat]

Kevin -- There are about 10 different Hebrew words and 4 different Greek words that are typically translated into English as "wine," "new wine," "strong drink," or the like. Use of these words is not limited to warnings against drunkenness -- think of the wedding at Cana, for example.

The argument that some people make is that some of those 14 terms may not necessarily refer to fully-fermented wine, but may instead refer to the juice of grapes (or other fruits, like pomegaranites) that either has not begun fermenting or is only slightly fermented. Most scholars disagree with that argument.

I've never heard anybody suggest that all of the wine mentioned in the Bible was non-alcoholic. (I have, however, heard suggestions that Jesus would only partaken of the "not-yet-fermented" wine. )

/detour

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Kevin -- There are about 10 different Hebrew words and 4 different Greek words that are typically translated into English as "wine," "new wine," "strong drink," or the like. Use of these words is not limited to warnings against drunkenness -- think of the wedding at Cana, for example.

The argument that some people make is that some of those 14 terms may not necessarily refer to fully-fermented wine, but may instead refer to the juice of grapes (or other fruits, like pomegaranites) that either has not begun fermenting or is only slightly fermented. Most scholars disagree with that argument.

I've never heard anybody suggest that all of the wine mentioned in the Bible was non-alcoholic. (I have, however, heard suggestions that Jesus would only partaken of the "not-yet-fermented" wine. )

/detour

He was the Vegan of his time. You know, those annoying buggers who insist that everything be made special for them. (I keed, I keed)

[elwoodpfiggs]

Hi! This is Phil again -- the new guy who started the thread.

On the subject of wine in the Bible, here is a thought: I think that the water that Christ turned into wine was probably actual wine, not just grape juice. If you remember the story, the wine that Christ provided was very good, which led the wedding guests to question why the best wine had been saved until the end of the feast. My understanding of this is that the really good wine was traditionally served earlier in the evening and the cheap stuff was saved for later when the guests would have been less discerning of its inferior quality.

I think it was Kevin who pointed out that the Bible does not openly condem drinking, only drunkeness. (Wasn't it Paul who wrote that a little wine each day is good for you?) However, the Bible DOES talk about repecting the law and the leadership of one's country. Underage drinking, then, is not consistent with that mandate -- that is my opinion, anyway.

In addition to the t-shirts on ebay, I am also unhappy that there have been actives in my own chapter in recent years who have had their girlfriends live with them for the summer in the chapter house. Speaking in a strictly practical way, this is a lawsuit waiting to happen! That aside, premarital sex in the house really goes against our historical roots. I'm not even sure that most acitves realize this.

There has probably always been premarital sex in frats, but at least there used to be some shame attached to it. People realized they were doing wrong and that if they were caught there would be punishment. I don't think that is particuarly true anymore. Guys are pretty open about the fact that their girlfriends are living with them. Bring back those blue-haried housemothers of the old days!

Speaking of housemothers/fathers, I'm just not convinced that a senior who has graduated in May is likely to be an effective housefather the following fall. I'm sure some of them are, but I'll bet many are not very successful as disciplinarians/moral examples. If I had a son who wanted to move into a house where the housefather had been a senior in the active chapter just a few months before, I think I would consider that the boys in that house were living more or less unsupervised. Maybe I'm being unfair, do you think?

Phil

[kathykd2005]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Luke 21:34 -- "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares."

Romans 13:13 -- "Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying."

Ephesians 5:18 -- "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit."

1 Timothy 3:8 -- "Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre."

... it seems the wine back then might have had alcohol in it.

Ahh, but "Drunkeness" could also be translated to "happy" in some archaic language, too, I suppose.