Another Texas Dragging

[shinerbock]

I agree they shouldn't be ignored. You said the purpose of the laws were:

"So that people of whatever race, gender, religion, and sexual orientation can live their lives without being schemed on and targeted solely because of these demographics."

If there is no evidence that hate crime laws reduce the frequency of hate crimes or generally act as a deterrent, how would they accomplish your stated purpose?

I think that purpose is a valid one, but I fail to see how hate crimes legislation furthers it.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

If there is no evidence that hate crime laws reduce the frequency of hate crimes or generally act as a deterrent, how would they accomplish your stated purpose?

Again, if this is your metric, you're advocating a lawless society.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Again, if this is your metric, you're advocating a lawless society.

Why, because punishment doesn't deter crime? It most certainly does among the general population.

Again then, how do hate crime laws further the purpose you stated?

[DSTCHAOS]

Law and punishment don't deter crime among the general population.

There has been no evidence that it does either, so I don't know where you're getting this deterrence argument from.

[shinerbock]

It would be a pretty difficult study to do when you take out the recidivists don't you think? You really don't think laws and punishments deter the general population from crime? It deters me all the time. I'd love to think I'm just more morally corrupt than the average American, but I find that pretty unlikely.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

It would be a pretty difficult study to do when you take out the recidivists don't you think?

Exactly but the research that has been done has controlled for a number of factors that contribute to crime reduction. These studies are inconsistent in their findings but are leaning toward there being NO substantive deterrent effect.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

It deters me all the time. I'd love to think I'm just more morally corrupt than the average American, but I find that pretty unlikely.

Are you tempted to murder or become a street level drug dealer and don't do so because there are laws against it. Do you want to commit assaults and robberies? If not, you're the average American who is a law abiding citizen when it comes to almost all forms of crime. Not necessarily JUST because of the laws but because we're socialized based on order rather than disorder.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Exactly but the research that has been done has controlled for a number of factors that contribute to crime reduction. These studies are inconsistent in their findings but are leaning toward there being NO substantive deterrent effect.



Are you tempted to murder or become a street level drug dealer and don't do so because there are laws against it. Do you want to commit assaults and robberies? If not, you're the average American who is a law abiding citizen when it comes to almost all forms of crime. Not necessarily JUST because of the laws but because we're socialized based on order rather than disorder.

Yeah, I agree for the most part, however people like me and you are probably more likely to be against things like theft and violence on principle alone than the average person.

However, when you get to other crimes, hit and runs (cars not people), driving under the influence, drug use, things of that nature I think are deterred by laws.

I see this is diverting substantially from the original topic. I'll conclude by saying I simply don't see that hate crime legislation furthers any stated purpose. You mentioned the law as a way to maintain order, and I agree, but I don't see that hate crime legislation would help do that. We already punish for those crimes, so I fail to see how harsher punishment would serve a purpose other than deterrence (not that it would actually deter).