Teach for America?

[ASUADPi]

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

I think you are right as far as the majors and coursework, but I think in general TFA types maybe smarter and better educated generally than many of the folks who go straight through with education majors.

I'm sorry but I take offense to this comment. Just because you are a TFA doesn't meant that you are generally "smarter and better educated than the folks who go straight through with education majors". In fact it is probably the other way around.

TFA's spend 5 weeks in intensive training. I'm sorry, education majors (non-alternate certification) spend 2+ years training. I know from my experience at ASU, that you had to do volunteer tutoring hours prior to applying to the COE (college of education). Then once in the program you spent your last four semesters in the field and 3 semesters taking all education coursework.

I chose alternative certification (because I obtained a BA History). I got my MA Elementary Education and certification at the same time. It was a one year intensive graduate program. All I took were education courses. And I'm still taking education courses. One reason is to get another certification but also to get more pay. To get more money, I have to continue to take graduate level coursework.

There are couple TFA's at my school right now. I can tell you that I am more educated than them. The most they have done is completed the appropriate coursework required to become state certified. While I have a Masters degree.

Just because your a TFA doesn't mean you're a great teacher. (And the same thing apply's for a regularly certified teacher's, I won't even get started on my coworker ).

[UGAalum94]

I stand by my comment generally although it doesn't apply in your case. Someone with an undergraduate degree in history is likely to be well educated in my book, but someone with a degree in education may or may not be. I didn't mean you with my original post; what may be true when you look at trends, may not be true in an individual case.

Based on my own experience taking education classes, reading studies of education, paying attention to educational reform, my impression of education programs is pretty bad. They might or might not actually prepare you teach in a school where you are likely to get a job. Yes, you will have jumped through more hoops than a TFAer, but those hoops might or might not have anything to do with teaching.

At many colleges, the school of education will have the lowest admission standards and some of the weakest students, as determined by GPA and SAT scores.

TFA, on the other hand, pulls heavily from the Ivy league and other top tier schools. They seem to attract and select very bright candidates, and they seem to have a rigorous selection process. The five week training course might be pretty skimpy, but in many schools where they take TFA candidates, the administration will frequently hire people will no education training at all if they can qualify for a provisional certificate. The turnover of fully certified teachers at the schools is usually very high.

I think there are excellent teachers out there who went though traditional programs, but I wouldn't say on average that graduates of education programs are better educated than people with the same level degree in a non-education field. Think person with MA in History vs. person with MA in Social Studies Ed: who do you think is generally better educated? You'd hope the Social Studies education majors were better prepared to teach, but I'd bet the history majors know more history.

Depending on the program they went through, the education program graduates might or might not be more prepared to teach, which is sad because it was the focus of their education for four years rather than five weeks and they ought to be clearly better prepared to teach.

(Now, the TFA folks you know may be complete idiots, but that hasn't been my experience. I haven't taught with any, though: I just know some folks who after college did TFA.)

Sorry for the rant. I'm sure that you personally are a great teacher. This is just an issue that winds me up.

[33girl]

You may be the smartest person ever, but if you can't transfer that info to your students when you teach, it doesn't really matter, does it?

I've had teachers and professors that I'm sure were certifiable geniuses, but they couldn't teach for jack, and I learned nothing in those classes.

I once read a novel where the main character bemoaned the fact that he wasn't GREAT at something, like writing or math...but he came to the conclusion that he was good at a lot of things, and that made him a great teacher. I think that's about right.

[UGAalum94]

Sure, 33Girl, it's true that a lot of smart people aren't particularly good teachers, but if you don't know something then you certainly can't teach it. We'd all hope that any college graduate would have mastered the content knowledge through high school, so maybe it doesn't make that much difference.

The original point that I was responding to, I think, suggested that TFA candidates were less educated and prepared than education program folks. I think that's a hard case to make considering how staffing works at the schools that TFA is in.

I'm not sure that "not great at anything but good at a many things" is really descriptive of most good teachers, but I do think a lot of teachers choose teaching because it allows them to use many of their talents.

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

The original point that I was responding to, I think, suggested that TFA candidates were less educated and prepared than education program folks. I think that's a hard case to make considering how staffing works at the schools that TFA is in.

No.

I was referring to No Child Left Behind requirements of a "highly qualified" teacher. In DC, that includes having at minimum a minor in education. Programs like TFA are ways around that requirement, because they are in essence teacher education programs and put you on the path to being "highly qualified."

At no time did I imply that anyone anywhere was more or less educated than anyone else.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

No.

I was referring to No Child Left Behind requirements of a "highly qualified" teacher. In DC, that includes having at minimum a minor in education. Programs like TFA are ways around that requirement, because they are in essence teacher education programs and put you on the path to being "highly qualified."

You are completely correct about matters of certification.

I apologize if I misrepresented your views. I didn't intend to go on a long rant about teacher qualifications, but being "highly qualified" by NCLB doesn't mean much, and that's where I was going with my first comment.

Looking more carefully, I can see that you were just dealing with the issue of labeling not quality. Sorry.

[ASUADPi]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I've had teachers and professors that I'm sure were certifiable geniuses, but they couldn't teach for jack, and I learned nothing in those classes.

Like I mentioned to Alphagamuga (via PM), I work with a lady (she is in the same grade level as me) who I wouldn't call a "certifiable genius" but she is probably an intelligant woman, but as a teacher she absolutely sucks! That is seriously the nicest way to put it. I mean this woman had the lowest 4th grade scores at the school (and we are talking a 3-5% difference between the other two 4th grade teachers, and that is a pretty big difference) she was moved (on purpose) down to 1st grade because she had swore up and down that she would quit. Did she? No.

I could go on about how horrible this woman is as a teacher (since I see and deal with it daily), but that's not what the thread is about (I just wanted to respond to the comment ).

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

TFA, on the other hand, pulls heavily from the Ivy league and other top tier schools. They seem to attract and select very bright candidates, and they seem to have a rigorous selection process. The five week training course might be pretty skimpy, but in many schools where they take TFA candidates, the administration will frequently hire people will no education training at all if they can qualify for a provisional certificate. The turnover of fully certified teachers at the schools is usually very high.

I have a lot of friends from college who decided to do TFA--not because they actually wanted to teach (my college does not have an undergrad education program), but because they weren't ready to go straight to law/medical/graduate school and figured that they could do that to pass the time for a year or two. None of them were even considering teaching for their careers.

The people who did NYCTF were usually committed to teaching for at least 5 years, if not for their entire careers.

I have a family "frenemy" who is a teacher here in NYC. She's annoying as hell and I can't freaking stand her, but she did have a really good point in that the teachers at her school who did TFA tend to be very very smart, but really didn't learn how to impart that knowledge to others. Plus, since they didn't go to school for education, they didn't feel as invested in their jobs as someone who did do an Elementary Ed program.

[tld221]

Originally Posted by ASUADPi

TFA's spend 5 weeks in intensive training. I'm sorry, education majors (non-alternate certification) spend 2+ years training. I know from my experience at ASU, that you had to do volunteer tutoring hours prior to applying to the COE (college of education). Then once in the program you spent your last four semesters in the field and 3 semesters taking all education coursework.

one of my gripes: 5 weeks vs. 2+ years. though there isn't a "set" amount of experience that can prep you for the harsh reality of teaching, that is quite a difference of training. i didnt do a traditional undergraduate education program, but i'd expect it to be worth more than a half a summer of intensive training. i'd think of it as cramming for a final exam vs. studying bit by bit throughout the term.

There are couple TFA's at my school right now. I can tell you that I am more educated than them. The most they have done is completed the appropriate coursework required to become state certified. While I have a Masters degree.

i personally value having the Master's over "appropriate coursework." i'd hope that the word "master's" implies that you've mastered the skills necessary to teach satisfactorily with room to work on that craft. of course this isnt always the case.

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

Based on my own experience taking education classes, reading studies of education, paying attention to educational reform, my impression of education programs is pretty bad. They might or might not actually prepare you teach in a school where you are likely to get a job. Yes, you will have jumped through more hoops than a TFAer, but those hoops might or might not have anything to do with teaching.
At many colleges, the school of education will have the lowest admission standards and some of the weakest students, as determined by GPA and SAT scores.

TFA, on the other hand, pulls heavily from the Ivy league and other top tier schools.

on the upside, many of my friends who student-taught got full-time jobs at their placement. couldve been the NYU credentials, or that they knew what they were doing, who knows. and the education students ALWAYS got ragged on for having the lowest GPA and SAT scores (for the graduate program, you dont have to submit GRE scores!).

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

Sure, 33Girl, it's true that a lot of smart people aren't particularly good teachers, but if you don't know something then you certainly can't teach it.

exactly. pulling from top-tier/Ivy League schools just says to me you want to put on your website "hey most of our applicants come from schools X, Y, and Z and have X.X GPA" which makes people believe that the students are gonna absorb that through osmosis. as i may have mentioned, i worked alongside a TFA teacher who was a computer science smarty from UPenn, but how did that make him qualified to teach 3rd grade special education?

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I have a lot of friends from college who decided to do TFA--not because they actually wanted to teach (my college does not have an undergrad education program), but because they weren't ready to go straight to law/medical/graduate school and figured that they could do that to pass the time for a year or two. None of them were even considering teaching for their careers. The people who did NYCTF were usually committed to teaching for at least 5 years, if not for their entire careers.

Again, with the example above, the kid (i say "kid" cause he was only a year older than me) was killing time before graduate school, and actually said at one point, "we didnt go over this kinda stuff in the summer program" (which is how i found out he was a TFAer).

Now NYCTF on the other hand, i'd give a shot, since youre doing going to school at night and teaching during the day. from its website, it seems way more realistic than TFA, and even though its intensive, its over 2 years and seems like its applicants have more dedication to the education field, which feels like more a fit than doing it to pass time between undergrad and grad.

[kstar]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I have a lot of friends from college who decided to do TFA--not because they actually wanted to teach (my college does not have an undergrad education program), but because they weren't ready to go straight to law/medical/graduate school and figured that they could do that to pass the time for a year or two. None of them were even considering teaching for their careers.

Many of my friends that did TFA did it for that reason. Also, many of them qualified for debt forgiveness on their student loans because of TFA.