Your thoughts on AI: discussion goes here.

[Adelphean]

Originally Posted by GDIfly

This has been thoroughly addressed but is still so ridiculous that I want to respond as well.

1)Org. specific forums are not JUST for members of that org. You may choose not to read other groups' forums, but acting like it's your duty or obligation to be ignorant of how they're run is just preposterous.

Until this very thread I had no clue how the D9 forum mods ran their forums. I don't care. I don't read them. I have no need to read them. I am not a D9 member. Is there some secret post that I NEED to go read? Apparently I missed the memo.

Originally Posted by GDIfly

2) News flash for you: This is an internet message board. John may not want a specific few to only post what they deem is acceptable, but I do believe he wants a moderated forum rather than a trainwreck. In the case of AI, more stringent moderation is needed, and that means locking down threads where women try to 'pursue' AI.

Why? There are many women on GC who have 'pursued' AI and have been successful with it. There are also some who have failed miserably. Should AIs only be allowed to post success stories? It seems to me since everyone is so against shopping and people knowing about AI it would be in our best interest to only allow failure stories. At least it'd be something interesting to read.

Originally Posted by GDIfly

Moderating a forum that has been known to cause controversy and 40-page-long threads debating the validity and necessity of its existence is hardly stripping people of their God-given right to free speech. It's the internet. It's not an appropriate venue for people to pursue AI [whether or not such a venue even exists is a different matter]. Therefore, moderating it by locking down such threads is merely removing inappropriate content, like spam, pornographic, or nonsense threads.

I see no reason why this forum should cause controversy. As I've been told before, if you don't like it, don't read it. If you get a PM from a PNAI delete it. Not hard, but then again, if you live for GC you might have to, HEAVEN FORBID, clean out your PM box more often.

Originally Posted by PenguinTrax

John has no problems with it. It is no different than a registered spammer posting and having it deleted or a registered user posting a ritual secret. As far as someone else moderating this forum, no-one else wanted it.

Furthermore, I do not appreciate being called a Omnipotent forum dictator.

I don't know about you, but I think 'Omnipotent forum dictator' is a pretty sweet title. Take it as a compliment, I know I would.

Originally Posted by PenguinTrax

You don't know me from Adam - how dare you impunge my good name (or Carnations). I have been a valuable member of the GC community for 7 years now and my ability to moderate the forums to which I am assigned has very rarely garnered anything but praise. I'd like to see you do this unpaid, and often, thankless job.

Didn't you volunteer for this job? Aren't volunteer jobs "unpaid, and often, thankless"?
And you're right, I don't want your job.

Originally Posted by PenguinTrax

AI is a membership function that is different for every group. GC has no right to hand out information on the process - GC is not affiliated with the NPC, IFC, NPHC, NALFO or any other oversight organization. GC is not a democracy - it is a free service offered up to the Fraternity & Sorority Community. It can be shut down at any time and its rules are subject to constant review and modification. If you don't like how a forum, or GC, is run, feel free to go elsewhere.

GC IS NOT handing out information on the process. Except maybe for the sticky at the top of the forum, and that was, I assume, put there by a mod.
Just because Jenny Joe of XYZ is telling Jessie Jean PNAI that XYZ does AI doesn't mean that GC is responsible for that content. You're not, I'm not, and frankly XYZ is not. If you don't like talking aboutAI then don't, but also don't forget that you DO have AI sisters. Don't sweep their existence under the rug because GASP you don't want to be bothered by sorority shoppers.

[valkyrie]

Originally Posted by Adelphean

If you don't like talking aboutAI then don't, but also don't forget that you DO have AI sisters. Don't sweep their existence under the rug because GASP you don't want to be bothered by sorority shoppers.

That doesn't even make sense. I am an AI and I don't want to see AI discussed on GC. Am I sweeping my own existence under the rug? WTF. Should those of us who don't like this forum just refrain from reading it or talking about AI on GC and ignore the fact that CRAZY PEOPLE have been initiated into our organizations as the result of this message board?

I don't want the AI experience cheapened by the crazies who come on here to sorority shop.

[Jen]

No more crazies, they make my head hurt.

[Adelphean]

Originally Posted by valkyrie

Should those of us who don't like this forum just refrain from reading it or talking about AI on GC and ignore the fact that CRAZY PEOPLE have been initiated into our organizations as the result of this message board?

I don't want the AI experience cheapened by the crazies who come on here to sorority shop.

WOW. So this is what it's all is about. We don't want "crazies" in our GLOs. I promise you, way more crazies come from collegiate recruitment than come from AI.
I will say I agree though. I don't want crazy people in my org, so perhaps all NPC groups should do away with mutual selection and hand pick each woman they want. That would, I'm sure, have a negatory effect on the number of "crazies" in each org. Then, do away with AI, and that solves another problem.

[greekalum]

Originally Posted by Adelphean

I will say I agree though. I don't want crazy people in my org, so perhaps all NPC groups should do away with mutual selection and hand pick each woman they want. That would, I'm sure, have a negatory effect on the number of "crazies" in each org. Then, do away with AI, and that solves another problem.

You do realize mutual selection does not mean "sororities have to take women they don't want who want them," right?

[ReachTheLimit]

Originally Posted by valkyrie

That doesn't even make sense. I am an AI and I don't want to see AI discussed on GC. Am I sweeping my own existence under the rug? WTF. Should those of us who don't like this forum just refrain from reading it or talking about AI on GC and ignore the fact that CRAZY PEOPLE have been initiated into our organizations as the result of this message board?

I don't want the AI experience cheapened by the crazies who come on here to sorority shop.

I think that is a very hypocritical point of view. It's like you used the AI boards for your personal information and then want to deny the same information getting passed to someone else. It's like, "I got in, but I'm going to support efforts to make it more difficult for others" mentality.

Now, if I was able to find my AI home, would I sponsor someone from the internet? Absolutely not. If I didn't know them personally, there is no way. I also, don't expect someone to extend me the same courtesy, nor would I ask for it.

[AlexMack]

Originally Posted by ReachTheLimit

I think that is a very hypocritical point of view. It's like you used the AI boards for your personal information and then want to deny the same information getting passed to someone else. It's like, "I got in, but I'm going to support efforts to make it more difficult for others" mentality.

Now, if I was able to find my AI home, would I sponsor someone from the internet? Absolutely not. If I didn't know them personally, there is no way. I also, don't expect someone to extend me the same courtesy, nor would I ask for it.

How does that post imply that Valkyrie used the AI boards for her journey? Am I missing a key part of your point or what?

[valkyrie]

Originally Posted by ReachTheLimit

I think that is a very hypocritical point of view. It's like you used the AI boards for your personal information and then want to deny the same information getting passed to someone else. It's like, "I got in, but I'm going to support efforts to make it more difficult for others" mentality.

Actually, it's not at all like I used the AI boards for my personal information.

[GDIfly]

Originally Posted by Adelphean

Until this very thread I had no clue how the D9 forum mods ran their forums. I don't care. I don't read them. I have no need to read them. I am not a D9 member. Is there some secret post that I NEED to go read? Apparently I missed the memo.

You don't NEED to read anything. Just don't act (as you were) like the only reason you don't know is because you're not a member. This thread is chock full of non members who are well aware of the D9's forum policies.

Why? There are many women on GC who have 'pursued' AI and have been successful with it. There are also some who have failed miserably. Should AIs only be allowed to post success stories? It seems to me since everyone is so against shopping and people knowing about AI it would be in our best interest to only allow failure stories. At least it'd be something interesting to read.

The problem with all of this, which you don't seem to understand, is that GC is a huge forum with a huge presence on search engines. There are women who stumble upon the forums every day with no idea of what AI is, but who think "Hey, being in a sorority might be fun." If the GC moderators allow the AI forum to be full of stories of women shopping sororities --even if they fail-- it will give the impression that shopping is the right/proper/common way to go about getting AIed.
Most of the people in here are of the mind that AI should NEVER be pursued. So even allowing threads where people pursue AI to stick around is planting the mere idea of pursuing AI into the minds of everyone who stumbles upon this forum, which is repugnant to those who are opposed to it. The idea behind getting rid of the AI forum is to quash promoting even the idea of pursuing AI for NPC sororities.
Isn't that censorship? Yes. But this is privately run site where the vast majority of regular posters want the idea censored, and have good reason to feel that way, so it's not the moral atrocity you're making it out to be.

I see no reason why this forum should cause controversy. As I've been told before, if you don't like it, don't read it.

You don't like the opinions in this thread, so don't read them.
Not that easy, is it?
These people feel strongly about AI and they don't want the wrong ideas being spread around about the process. Because AI is such a sensitive subject there's no way to AVOID controversy in this forum.

[EE-BO]

Leaving aside definitions and opinions, it really is a pretty simple consideration in my opinion.

Should this site provide a venue for people to discuss and pursue membership in GLOs in a way that is inconsistent with the intent of the GLOs themselves, or should it not?

Is this forum intended to serve the Greek Community, or is it intended to serve those who wish to openly discuss ways to become a part of the Greek Community in a manner that is not appropriate for an internet discussion?

I have not been on this site all that long, but it seems to me much bad blood spills over from the AI forum into other forums.

Those looking for a scientific and precise definition of AI and GLO policies on AI will never find it here- and for the exact same reasons I would never come on this board and post about my chapter's last rush and who we took or did not take, and why.

Anyone who posts here purporting to offer tips and secrets to make AI successful is offering false information. That person is not necessarily being intentionally misleading- they may just be sharing what worked for them- but the fact remains that it is information that lacks the value that it is implied to provide.

Whatever you think about the definition of sorority shopping or whether there should be an AI forum, can anyone really disagree with what I have just stated in the above two paragraphs?

GC has to then decide whether to keep the forum given the potential quality of information that could be conveyed about AI, the feelings of GLOs IHQs on the public discussion of such, and the difficulty of moderating a forum that can so easily and quickly get off the trail of what IS appropriate public discussion of AI.

I think that decision will have a great impact not only on the quality of GC, but on the willingness of active GLO members, alumni, chapter advisors and others to post here at all in any forum.

Let me give you another example. Let's say that gradually the Risk Management forum were to evolve into a place where fraternity members would come to post and ask about ways to get around IHQ risk management policies to hold wild parties.

What would be the consequences of that?

In many ways that is different from sorority shopping on AI- but there is one key thing both have in common. Both provide a venue on an internet site for people to have discussions about matters that IHQs would consider highly inappropriate for good reason.

This is a great site for the promotion and discussion of GLOs. It is not appropriate as a place to openly attempt to make public, circumvent or argue for a change in GLO policies that are their own to privately manage.

[texas*princess]

Bravo EE-BO for an excellent & well-thought out post

[Drolefille]

Some thoughts:
a) don't jump on PT, she's not got an easy job
B) PT, don't make it personal. Being a mod is a lot of work, but if you don't want it, I'd be glad to accept the job. I think I could do just fine.
c)Adelphean, I encourage you to read the D9 forums as I've learned a lot doing so
d) I know quite a few peope who Don't read forums besides the general ones and their own GLO so if everyone could ease up on that, that'd be great. She said she didn't know because she didn't read, not because she's not a member.
e) I don't think that offering PNAIs encouragement and or discouragement actually violates any GLO policies. Apparently saying things like "Good luck" is the equivalent of virtually sponsoring.
There's a recent post by a PNAI that involves her looking at one organization assuming it's the NPC one not the D9 one, there's nothing wrong with her question. The actual advice given is sane and NO ONE is jumping up and down saying "I'll sponsor you!!!!" The thread doesn't need to be locked, because it doesn't break any rules. And I don't think the rules should be changed so that it does. If you google for AI, GC is one of the first things to come up. That wouldn't change even if you removed the AI forum, because you'd have to delete all the threads as well. People are always going to come and ask questions here. It's a Greek site. I think it is more appropriate to answer the questions (even if the answer is negative, i'm not advocating SSBUB*) than to lock them with a PM.

Answering questions doesn't equal subverting GLO policies. If your GLO prohibits the answering of such questions, then I suggest that you avoid doing so. I'm not aware of any GLO that prohibits me from directing someone to talk to her friends or to dress up for a dinner with an alumna group.

I think it's silly to act like the NPC has a unified policy on this. If they come up with one, sure follow it, until then I don't see why sorority members can't behave appropriately (or have their posts deleted). I thought we were supposed to be the mature ones. Let the crazies show themselves and ruin their own chances. Let the normal people make their inquiries and get useful information (postive and negative).

GC is not an advertisment for AI, but we are a bunch of Greeks who can answer questions (if we wish).

And if you don't like getting PMs from potential AIs (something which wouldn't change w/o the forum) you're not being forced to respond. Delete them and move on with your day.

*sunshine blowing up butt

[texas*princess]

While GC is not official advertisement (i.e. you don't see a banner on the site that says "Interested in AI? Come here for all your AI needs!") it puts something out there that shouldn't be and it inadvertenly becomes the hub of AI information.

And I think that is the point that many people have tried to make here on several occasions.

GC is NOT an official source of information regarding AI or AI policies of any sorority. LIke you mentioned, it is one of the first things that comes up when you google AI. So naturally many average people will think that it is.

I'm not sure if you've read EE-BO's post just a few posts above yours, but I recommend reading it, or re-reading it if you haven't done so. She clearly states what so many of us have been trying to say.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by texas*princess

While GC is not official advertisement (i.e. you don't see a banner on the site that says "Interested in AI? Come here for all your AI needs!") it puts something out there that shouldn't be and it inadvertenly becomes the hub of AI information.

And I think that is the point that many people have tried to make here on several occasions.

GC is NOT an official source of information regarding AI or AI policies of any sorority. LIke you mentioned, it is one of the first things that comes up when you google AI. So naturally many average people will think that it is.

I'm not sure if you've read EE-BO's post just a few posts above yours, but I recommend reading it, or re-reading it if you haven't done so. She clearly states what so many of us have been trying to say.

Yes, I read it. But I disagree that the forum is equivalent to subverting GLO HQs wishes or a violation of the policy.

There is no reason that the IHQs of our GLOs need to find the AI forum inappropriate. The actions of the sorority members may be inappropriate but I think THAT is what should be modded, not questions asked. GC is not held to HQ standards, members are.

We should not as a message board be trying to appeal to HQs. To do so would be impossible. Imagine trying to hold everyone to the rules of every HQ. Impossible.

Those looking for a scientific and precise definition of AI and GLO policies on AI will never find it here- and for the exact same reasons I would never come on this board and post about my chapter's last rush and who we took or did not take, and why.

Anyone who posts here purporting to offer tips and secrets to make AI successful is offering false information. That person is not necessarily being intentionally misleading- they may just be sharing what worked for them- but the fact remains that it is information that lacks the value that it is implied to provide.

This is NOT the purpose of the AI forum. I agree that the tips and secrets as well as an exact definition is not what this forum is for. Though I've never seen anyone posting "quick tips to AI" or "the secrets of getting into the GLO of your choice." Advice such as "go dressier" or "contact people you know in the GLO, they'll know more" is none of the above.

I don't care whether the AI forum stays or goes but I do not believe that NPC AI is the equivalent to the D9's graduate intake and I don't think threads regarding it should be treated as such. I fail to see the problem with pointing people in a direction, even if they're going to get a big fat NO, or with wishing them good luck or sympathizing with long down times in the process. THAT is simply being nice. No matter what I may think of even the crazy PNAIs on this board, I hope they will all be happy because everyone should be happy. Things may not work out with regards to AI (and if they're crazy, they shouldn't) but hopefully they'll find something fulfilling to do. Even pointing people in the directions of other organizations (for example: PNAI wants to join a sorority, only familiar with the NPC ones, wants to join. User2582 recommends the list of non-collegiate sororities which may fit better with her needs.)

What I expect out of the AI forum (or AI threads outside of an AI forum if there isn't one): Information/Direction (non-MS), General Support, Discouragement. And yeah, the occasional crazy person (member or not) who starts a fight. That's where the mod should come in.

What I don't consider appropriate: Taking this particular discussion to those threads, Ritual information being provided, and sponsoring a woman via the internet. I'm sure there's more, but you get the point.

This isn't a "everyone has to be happy and yay" thing. It's an expectation of civility whether positive or negative.

/Not that my opinion matters much.

[blueangel]

I agree with much of Drolefille says in her post above.

(quick digression but on topic with what Drolefille's post) A word on moderating.. Having been a moderator on a number of boards myself, I can tell you that it can be an easy job or an extremely difficult job, depending on one thing.... consistancy. It can be an easy job IF rules are made clear and universally enforced.

Being a moderator on GC looks to be quite challenging for that one reason... there seems to be no consistancy from one GC forum to another. I can see how it makes it more difficult for some moderators on GC to enforce rules when other moderators are more lax in their GC own forums. That's why we have seen threads that were removed by one moderator due to what they felt was breaking the TOS.. show up in an entirely different forum in GC with a more lax moderator, even if it was off-topic in that second forum.

Think of it as trying to parent a child when one parent allows the child one form of behavior and the other allows something different. The more strict parent becomes "the bad guy." My suggestion for GC is to go over specific rules (for example.. will four letter words be allowed? Or not?) Then.. enforce those rules and be consistant with punishment. For example.. if someone continually breaks the rules, they would get a warning PM. Second offense, on probation. Third, suspension for a designated period of time. And if all fails, banned.

And.. even though this forum is quite challenging... I would volunteer to help moderate it.

(Back to the immediate issue). Forums are meant to be discussion groups where a variety of opinions are expressed, support is given to those who need it, and information is shared.

I understand how some people feel about women who want to AI for the wrong reasons. However, it isn't up to GC to shut them down.. it is up to the GLO's headquarters and local chapters to decide whether that woman is suitable and worthy of AI.

Further, I don't see huge floodgates opening to AI because of GC. If you look at the list of those who were (or are) PNAI's.. you won't see thousands.. or even hundreds. It's a very small number. Just in the last six months.. there have only been a handful or so who have posted here. It just doesn't seem to be the big problem that some people are making it out to be.

I think Drolefille said it best when she pointed out that GC isn't an advertisement for AI, but rather a place where Greeks can answer questions if they desire.

(edited for two typos)