BGLO and GLO

[GDIfly]

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

This statement really makes me sad. Although a lot of sororities and fraternities were founded by caucasion individuals, that doesn't make them "white" GLOs. I think everyone should just join whatever GLO they feel comfortable in. I guess I am just a bit naive though.

While it doesn't "make them white GLOs," these GLOs do have a history of being predominantly white. Whether they have a history of excluding members of other colors and races or not (and I believe that most of them did, at one time), all of the NPC and NIC GLO's have historically catered to a vast majority of caucasian men and women and continue to do so. Similarly, the D9 have historically catered to a majority of black men and women. If we are going to call NPHC organizations "black GLO's" it only makes sense to call the NPC and NIC organizations "white GLO's."

FTR, I agree that everyone should join whichever GLO they feel comfortable in and we shouldn't force segregation, but the historical origins are important to the continuing identities of the organizations as well.

[kathykd2005]

Originally Posted by GDIfly

While it doesn't "make them white GLOs," these GLOs do have a history of being predominantly white. Whether they have a history of excluding members of other colors and races or not (and I believe that most of them did, at one time), all of the NPC and NIC GLO's have historically catered to a vast majority of caucasian men and women and continue to do so.
Similarly, the D9 have historically catered to a majority of black men and women. If we are going to call NPHC organizations "black GLO's" it only makes sense to call the NPC and NIC organizations "white GLO's."

FTR, I agree that everyone should join whichever GLO they feel comfortable in and we shouldn't force segregation, but the historical origins are also important to the continuing identities of the organizations as well.

While history's implications are definitely important, I was always baffled when individuals I knew and was friends with wouldn't join a Greek organization on campus because it wasn't a traditionally African American sorority. We also had several women decline bids ONLY because KD was not a traditionally "black" GLO. I don't think ANY GLOs should be designated "Black" or "White." It implies racism from either side.

[jubilance1922]

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

While history's implications are definitely important, I was always baffled when individuals I knew and was friends with wouldn't join a Greek organization on campus because it wasn't a traditionally African American sorority. We also had several women decline bids ONLY because KD was not a traditionally "black" GLO. I don't think ANY GLOs should be designated "Black" or "White." It implies racism from either side.

What you (and many others who are not African-American) do not realize is the significance that NPHC orgs play in the African-American community. Most Black freshman have a least a familiarity with NPHC orgs because they've seen them in the community, they have family members or family friends who are members, they've been in someone's youth auxillary or cotillion, or maybe a teacher/mentor/coach is Greek. They've seen these orgs do things for and in the community (both the African-American community and the geographical community) and realize the significance that these orgs play. For the majority of folks who join NPHC orgs, its about helping our community on a regular basis for the rest of your life, not just having fun for your collegiate experience.

*cue someone who comes in and says NPC/NIC is for life too*

[kathykd2005]

Originally Posted by jubilance1922

What you (and many others who are not African-American) do not realize is the significance that NPHC orgs play in the African-American community. Most Black freshman have a least a familiarity with NPHC orgs because they've seen them in the community, they have family members or family friends who are members, they've been in someone's youth auxillary or cotillion, or maybe a teacher/mentor/coach is Greek. They've seen these orgs do things for and in the community (both the African-American community and the geographical community) and realize the significance that these orgs play. For the majority of folks who join NPHC orgs, its about helping our community on a regular basis for the rest of your life, not just having fun for your collegiate experience.

*cue someone who comes in and says NPC/NIC is for life too*

I find this EXTREMELY offensive, because I feel the same way about MY Greek letter organization, although some people might say that it is a "WHITE" GLO. I work in the community with my organization, and consider myself a lifetime member--it was NOT just a sorority for my college years, or a place to party at. For your information, the GLO I am in has FOUR national philanthropies, and numerous links to the community. I served as overall philanthropy chair as well as chair of our annual philanthropy event, and I have to tell you, we worked in the community EVERY weekend. Our members range from former Miss America winners to three star generals to current governors of states. Also, you shouldn't make assumptions about the color of my skin--just so you know, I'm from NY, and work in the Bronx. You have NO IDEA what color my skin could be.

[jubilance1922]

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

I find this EXTREMELY offensive, because I feel the same way about MY Greek letter organization, although some people might say that it is a "WHITE" GLO. I work in the community with my organization, and consider myself a lifetime member--it was NOT just a sorority for my college years, or a place to party at. For your information, the GLO I am in has FOUR national philanthropies, and numerous links to the community. I served as overall philanthropy chair as well as chair of our annual philanthropy event, and I have to tell you, we worked in the community EVERY weekend. Our members range from former Miss America winners to three star generals to current governors of states. Also, you shouldn't make assumptions about the color of my skin--just so you know, I'm from NY, and work in the Bronx. You have NO IDEA what color my skin could be.

You'll just have to be offended. I didn't say that you didn't do any of the things you mentioned, you just got all hissy at what you THOUGHT I said.

Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about: As a child, I attended academic programs sponsored by AKA and DST. My friends participated in Kappa League. I had teachers who wore para ever chance they got. During AIDS walk and March of Dimes, I saw members of all 9 NPHC orgs. When I volunteered at the hospital and the homeless shelter, I did so alongside NPHC members.

My point is that NPHC orgs are extremely visible in the African-American community. So by the time most African-American students make it to college, they have at least a passing knowledge of these orgs and what they do in the community. To be honest with you, I had never heard of any NPC sororities until my sophmore year of college. I didn't get any info about rush my freshman year (maybe cause I'm black? ). But then again, you don't see me on GC talking about how much "better" the NPHC is than NPC/NIC the way some others do...

[kathykd2005]

Originally Posted by jubilance1922

My point is that NPHC orgs are extremely visible in the African-American community. So by the time most African-American students make it to college, they have at least a passing knowledge of these orgs and what they do in the community. To be honest with you, I had never heard of any NPC sororities until my sophmore year of college. I didn't get any info about rush my freshman year (maybe cause I'm black? ). But then again, you don't see me on GC talking about how much "better" the NPHC is than NPC/NIC the way some others do...

Some schools are just really bad about getting information out about their recruitment. I sincerely hope it wasn't due to your skin color.

[Langox510x]

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

Some schools are just really bad about getting information out about their recruitment. I sincerely hope it wasn't due to your skin color.

I'm not saying anything about racism, but the truth is that many fraternities do look at minorities and assume that they wouldn't even be interested in the first place, which that is not always the case. I know it goes both ways too, because unless someone who wasn't black really stood out at a lot of black fraternities they probably would be written off as someone who wasn't that fraternities material either.

I mean Kathy, can you honestly say that a black person with a strong ethnic upbringing, someone truly conscious about who they and their ancestors are and had much pride, but at the same time was a true lady about it would have the slightest chance of "fitting in" with your sorority??

I'm so glad I found the right fraternity on campus (which isn't black either) otherwise I possibly wouldn't have pledged for anything.

[KAY10]

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

I find this EXTREMELY offensive, because I feel the same way about MY Greek letter organization, although some people might say that it is a "WHITE" GLO. I work in the community with my organization, and consider myself a lifetime member--it was NOT just a sorority for my college years, or a place to party at. For your information, the GLO I am in has FOUR national philanthropies, and numerous links to the community. I served as overall philanthropy chair as well as chair of our annual philanthropy event, and I have to tell you, we worked in the community EVERY weekend. Our members range from former Miss America winners to three star generals to current governors of states. Also, you shouldn't make assumptions about the color of my skin--just so you know, I'm from NY, and work in the Bronx. You have NO IDEA what color my skin could be.

I think that's great you're still involved with your sorority. You should be. Kappa Delta should stay with you til the day you die. Keep it up.

[GDIfly]

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

We also had several women decline bids ONLY because KD was not a traditionally "black" GLO.

Strange. If they didn't want to join a GLO that wasn't a traditionally "black" one, why were they rushing in the first place? Did NPHC sororities at your campus recruit/intake with the NPC sororities?

I don't think ANY GLOs should be designated "Black" or "White." It implies racism from either side.

This is beautifully idealistic, and I would love to agree, but there are always going to be people who are more "comfortable" with others of the same color.

That sounds terribly racist, I know, but the fact is that, in this country, people of different racial and ethnic backgrounds often identify culturally better with people of the same background as them. Whether this is because they are perceived similarly by American society, because they often fall into the same socio-economic background, because they have shared cultural experiences, or for a multitude of other reasons, groups of people tend to gravitate towards those of the same race or ethnicity.
That is not to say that they necessarily have a problem with people of other colors (though they might), just that they feel more comfortable with those who have more shared life experiences with them, and race/ethnicity provides a huge shared experience.

That being said, for a caucasian person in the United States today, they are the majority. With exceptions, they will generally be surrounded mostly by other white people and thus not feel as though they are a representative for their group. For black people, asians, hispanics, or any other group to which BGLO's and MGLO's cater, they are not provided that comfort in everyday life, but the ability to go to an HBCU or join a BGLO (for example) allows them that cushion of comfort that white people so often take for granted.
So, while we shouldn't force segregation, equalling out the balance of whites and blacks (and asians, and hispanics) in all GLO's would be counterproductive to one of the main functions of the BGLO.

[kathykd2005]

[QUOTE=GDIfly;1328028]Strange. If they didn't want to join a GLO that wasn't a traditionally "black" one, why were they rushing in the first place? Did NPHC sororities at your campus recruit/intake with the NPC sororities?

At the school where I went, the only African American sorority that was there left in the mid-90s, and never tried to recolonize. A lot of my friends went through recruitment for the experience, but when it came to joining, some said they didn't want to join because they didn't want to be in a sorority that was not a traditional "Black" GLO. After that, some of the ladies I knew tried to start a chapter of AKA, but were not able to get the appropriate backing.

Thanks for explaining your opinion in such a positive manner, I truly appreciate it!

[OOhsoflyDELTA#9]

I try not to respond in these threads that touch on race because at the end of the day no one is going to change their minds here anyway...but what alot of the folks on GC that are members of NPC/IFC orgs don't seem to fully grasp is that its a COMPLETELY different experience for us...I knew what sorority I wanted to pledge in middle school....I also knew that you don't "change teams" so to speak....if I had not been chosen by Delta in Spr 02, I would have tried for DELTA in Spr 03, then a graduate chapter for as long as it took until I got DELTA....if the good Lord never made it happen for me, I would have died with no letters...the greeks in my family taught me this among other lessons about the BGLO experience early on....my favorite teacher was a Delta..like someone said we see the D9 orgs doing work in our communities as we grow up...we admire and respect these people and want to join the same orgs...or the orgs that our family members belong to....I attended a school with no NPHC representation for 1 year...I would never participate in a NPC rush, thats just me...the idea of not knowing where I was going to end up baffles me....but I'm not knocking it....why can't it be ok for the BGLOs and the "predominantly" WGLOs (yeah I said it) to be different and therefore needed?

[Tom Earp]

There is nothing saying you are not right.

But why isnt there more HBGLOs on Camupuses?

With the presence there, would it not give the chance to join a HBGLO? If it or they isn't there, then it doesn't does it?

My School has one only HBGLO, while I was there, it had four, two Male and two Female, now, only one Fraternity.

So, I want to know why is that?

Whose fault is it?

[Wolfman]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

There is nothing saying you are not right.

But why isnt there more HBGLOs on Camupuses?

With the presence there, would it not give the chance to join a HBGLO? If it or they isn't there, then it doesn't does it?

My School has one only HBGLO, while I was there, it had four, two Male and two Female, now, only one Fraternity.

So, I want to know why is that?

Whose fault is it?

This reflects a difference in culture between HWGLOs and HBGLOs. The latter typically don't "colonize," that is, do on a campus to stir up interest to start a chapter. It usually starts with an interest group on campus that reaches out to the org. There is the idea, deeply ingrained in HBGLOs, that you don't recruit. The rush process is looked upon with disdain in D0 circles,as being akin to a cattle call and more like a mass marketing campaign whish ends up with lukewarm members who quit and de-pledge if they don't like someone or something in the group, like it's a junior high social club. In BGLOs, as perceptions and expectations go, to consider "pledging" is a very serious matter, akin to getting married or making a religious commitment. And frankly,many are scared to do so. The fact that in many places chapter sizes are small is interpreted as sign of selctivity and the difficulty of attaining membership.

Of course this is a sterotype but in all stereotypes there's a grain of truth,and sometimes more than that. The point I want to make is that caucasian members of HWGLOs should allow themselves the opportunity to think outside of their frame of reference in order to drop the unwitting cultural superiority of their take on Greekdom. You may learn something helpful;and, by the way, I do think this goes the other way to.


It interests me that I don't hear the question posed the other way around:in an era of cultural pluralism where there are no "HWGLOs" and everyone should be free to join whatever GLO they want without fear of social intimidation by peers,etc., why don't more whites pledge HBGLOs? Why is that?

[mccoyred]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

There is nothing saying you are not right.

But why isnt there more HBGLOs on Camupuses?

With the presence there, would it not give the chance to join a HBGLO? If it or they isn't there, then it doesn't does it?

My School has one only HBGLO, while I was there, it had four, two Male and two Female, now, only one Fraternity.

So, I want to know why is that?

Whose fault is it?

The fact is that at PWIs (yes, I said it) the overall population of Blacks tends to be small, esp at private colleges. The percentage of that population that is even interested will be smaller, the percentage that qualify will be smaller still, the percentage that apply will be smaller than that, then the percentage that will actually cross/join will be even smaller. This already small population to begin with leads to small chapters. That being said, there are membership minimums that must be met in order to sustain a chapter. Often times these minimums are not sustainable.

In addition, as previously mentioned, the majority of us in NPHC orgs know which organization we want to join BEFORE rush (sometimes are early as middle school). With our orgs, as a general practice, we don't just join whichever one gives us a 'bid'. It is frowned upon to actively pursue more than one NPHC org; I am not saying it happens, but it can reflect badly on an interest. So if I want to join Delta but there is no Delta chapter on campus, I would not join AKA just because they are on campus, I will wait for Delta even if it means joining an alumnae chapter. So you take that population of interests mentioned above and whittle it even further to exclude those whose org of choice is not on campus (not chartered, died out, suspended, etc.) then you have an even smaller population still.

Now take California and Proposition 29 which dramatically decreased the already small number of Blacks in the public university system and the target population is small to begin with.

Here are some examples for those who need the visual:

- PWI University has a population of 1000 students, 7% of which are Black and 10% of which are other minority (Hispanic, Asian, etc.) leaving 83% Caucasian (hence the PWI categorization).

830 Caucasians
70 Blacks
100 other minorities

- There are 5 NIC fraternities, 3 NPC sororities, 2 NPHC frats and 2 NPHC sororities.

- Lets take a raw percentage of 40% of students are interested in Greek Life, or 200 of the total. Lets apply this percentage to each ethnic group: 332 Caucasians, 28 Blacks, 40 other minorities.

- Of those interested, only 60% of them have the GPA. Leaving 199 Caucasians, 17 Blacks and 24 other minorities.

Even though I can whittle down further, lets stop here. So you have 199 Caucasians or an avg of 25 members per org (NPC and IFC combined) and 17 Black or an average of 4 members per org (all NPHC orgs). Lets allocate 80% of the other minorities to NPC/IFC orgs and 20% to NPHC orgs, then we have 218 in NPC/IFC orgs or an avg of 27 members and 23 in NPHC orgs or an avg of 6 members.

Not taking into account those who will apply and be rejected or those who will join an org other than their predominant racial category, NPC/IFC orgs are almost five times as large on average! If you throw in multicultural orgs, the Black population joining NPHC orgs gets smaller still.

Disclaimer: The above numbers were derived from a real life situation.


I say all that to say that it is a numbers game.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

There is nothing saying you are not right.

But why isnt there more HBGLOs on Camupuses?

With the presence there, would it not give the chance to join a HBGLO? If it or they isn't there, then it doesn't does it?

My School has one only HBGLO, while I was there, it had four, two Male and two Female, now, only one Fraternity.

So, I want to know why is that?

Whose fault is it?

You can figure out this answer on your own, Tom. What does it take to get a charter and what does it take to keep a charter and/or active chapter?