Does your HQ *really* want to know about hazing?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I agree with you in part. But I think it will be a while before traditional southern chapters completely move away from "hazing"(never, I hope).

It's happening though -- or at least, it's being changed into something we might not be afraid to invite a High Council member to watch. Our Oklahoma State chapter, for example has made some pretty huge changes in the last few years. They're certainly top tier on that campus (and they'd probably be top tier anywhere else). I'm not sure to what extent they've changed, but they really have. Their alums rewarded them with 2.5 million in money for rennovations, so everything's working out nicely.

Once again, when I say hazing, I mean making it a challenge for pledges to become members. This is not the CNN beating and force-drinking hazing.

This is part of the problem with our aversion to hazing. We lump all of these activities together. While I may disagree with you in terms of the utility of things like lineups, and pledge challenges, I think we'd both agree that those types of things have no business being lumped together with what we see on CNN as you say. I think we can all agree that type of activity simply should not happen, and I think we'd all agree that whoever does participate in activities like that should be shut down.

Sigma Nu at Auburn is a very good chapter, and I have heard from people (and I've seen this as well), that legacies may be hurting them. Don't get me wrong, legacies are most often a plus, but when you have tons of them coming through, you're bound to get some ones you'd rather not have.

Actually, I think we've changed up our legacy policy. Those guys were right. I understand why the legacy system is in place, but I really think it should be up to the chapter as to whether or not to implement it. Some chapters need help getting good guys, others need help keeping bad guys out. National policy's number one objective should be to stay out of the way of local chapters unless what they're doing is directly beneficial to the local chapters.

-- and if we want to continue that discussion, we can do it in Chapter Operations

Do I think hazing creates good chapters? No. Do I think smart and purposeful hazing creates a quality and strong brotherhood? Yes. I do still think there is a correlation between strict anti-hazing chapters and being bottom tier, at least here in the south.

Correlation does not equal causation though. Let's look at why most of those chapters are strict anti-hazing in the first place.

First, we can assume either one of two things -- both of which are bad in the South:

1) It's a new chapter; or
2) The chapter has been in trouble, is a recolonization, is on probation from their national, etc.

If we can agree that these types of chapters with a few exceptions are principally one of the above two types, I think we can see why they're at a disadvantage in the first place.

The new chapter doesn't have the advantage of tradition. In the South, I think this is a huge disadvantage. Guys are looking for established houses with active alumni networks. Given the choice between houses that have this and houses that don't, I think that it's obvious what type of group most would choose to belong to.

If the chapter has been in trouble, is a recolonization, etc. this is self-explanatory. Of course, it's not always the case. I don't have much insight, but our Arkansas chapter just recolonized. Their alums built them a multi-million dollar house with an excellent location while they were still a colony. I imagine that they're also a strong anti-hazing chapter since these guys probably have no exposure to anything but what our HQ has given them in terms of national programming, but I understand there are exceptions to every rule. It'll be interesting to see if we can repeat this feat in the South as we're recolonizing at Vandy this year.

[shinerbock]

On my campus at least, we havent seen much of the "getting into trouble" type. Fraternities that get in trouble and stay on campus, generally are more careful, but do revert to old practices. The "No-Hazing" type fraternities are generally one of the following, in my experience.

1) New on campus, like you said. Often they are fraternities which although big nationwide, are thought poorly of at the big southern schools. I won't name names, but you can ask me in PM if you actually wanna know. They generally have a tough time competing with the other fraternities, and thus use the no hazing policy to attract rushees. Unfortunately for them, the kids they attract generally couldnt go elsewhere, and so 5-10 years later, they're in the same position.

2) A fraternity that has been around for a while, but has a strict national policy or is a struggling fraternity. To clarify, most of the big fraternities on campus are paid no attention to by HQ. They often use them as examples for operations, but rarely pay attention to what else is going on, probably out of the desire to not know. Those chapters whose HQ do pay close attention, however, are often forced to implement such things, or risk losing money, insurance, etc. There are only a couple on campus like this that I can think of. The other type is a struggling fraternity who like a new fraternity, is looking to move up. Unfortunately, the practice of being a strict no hazing fraternity generally attracts the wrong people, and thus their efforts are self defeating.

[Tom Earp]

Something to think about!

Subject: Doing time in AZ


Sheriff Joe Arpaio (in Arizona ) who created the "tent city jail":
>
> He has jail meals down to 40 cents a serving and charges the inmates
for them.
>
> He stopped smoking and porno magazines in the jails. Took away their
weights. Cut off all but "G" movies.
>
> He started chain gangs so the inmates could do free work on county
and city projects.
>
> Then he started chain gangs for women so he wouldn't get sued for
discrimination.
>
> He took away cable TV until he found out there was a federal court
order that required cable TV for jails. So he hooked up the cable TV
again only let in the Disney channel and the weather channel.
>
> When asked why the weather channel he replied, so they wil! l know
how hot it's gonna be while they are working on my chain gangs.
>
> He cut off coffee since it has zero nutritional value.
>
> When the inmates complained, he told them, "This isn't the
Ritz/Carlton. If you don't like it, don't come back."
>
> He bought Newt Gingrich lecture series on videotape that he pipes
into the jails.
>
> When asked by a reporter if he had any lecture series by a Democrat,
he replied that a democratic lecture series might explain why a lot of
the inmates were in his jails in the first place.
>
>
>
> More on the Arizona Sheriff:
>
> With temperatures being even hotter than usual in Phoenix (116
degrees just set a new record), the Associated Press reports: About
2,000 inmates living in a barbed-wire-surrounded tent encampment at the
Maricopa County Jail have been given permission to strip down to their
government-issued pink boxer shorts.
>
> ! On Wednesday, hundreds of men wearing boxers were either curled up
on their bunk beds or chatted in the tents, which reached 138 degrees
inside the week before.
>
> Many were also swathed in wet, pink towels as sweat collected on
their chests and dripped down to their pink socks.
>
> "It feels like we are in a furnace," said James Zanzot, an inmate who
has lived in the tents for 1 year. "It's inhumane."
>
> Joe Arpaio, the tough-guy sheriff who created the tent city and long
ago started making his prisoners wear pink, and eat bologna sandwiches,
is not one bit sympathetic He said Wednesday that he told all of the
inmates: "It's 120 degrees in Iraq and our soldiers are living in tents
too, and they have to wear full battle gear, but they didn't commit any
crimes, so shut your damned mouths!"
>
> Way to go, Sheriff! Maybe if all prisons were like this one there
would be a lot less crime and/or repeat offenders. Criminals should be
punished for their crimes - not live in luxury until it's time for their
parole, only to go out and commit another crime so they can get back in
to live on taxpayers money and enjoy things taxpayers can't afford to
have for themselves.
>


Well, while it doesnt seem to seem anything to say, if you do the crime, then you do the time!

[shinerbock]

Not sure thats relevant, but good post Tom. Glad to see there are people on this site who feel everybody in society does not have the right to be coddled and encouraged.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Not sure thats relevant, but good post Tom. Glad to see there are people on this site who feel everybody in society does not have the right to be coddled and encouraged.

Thank You, but is this not true as We have been discussing?

Dont do the crime as it were, dont do the crime!

Stupid is as Stupid does?

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

Thank You, but is this not true as We have been discussing?

Dont do the crime as it were, dont do the crime!

Stupid is as Stupid does?

Tom, i have no idea what this means.

[Elephant Walk]

Of course, it's not always the case. I don't have much insight, but our Arkansas chapter just recolonized. Their alums built them a multi-million dollar house with an excellent location while they were still a colony.

The house isn't built yet. It's going to run them about 5.4 million dollars, since Don Tyson (SN alumn) gave them 1.7 mill. It is in a great location, HOWEVER it was not built while they were a colony. It is being built as we speak, and will be livable at the start of next year.

As shiner said, new row fraternities are often thought poorly of. Usually nationally if a fraternity is founded after 1900, it is not looked well upon, but there are exceptions (lambda chi, LSU...).