Does your HQ *really* want to know about hazing?

[KyleMcGuire1983]

study hours and learning information is NOT hazing.

house cleans ups in my opinion are not hazing either

line ups on the other hand TOTALLY sound like hazing.

When I think of what is hazing and what is not I ask "is this actually beneficial to the chapter at large?"

If the answer is yes it's probably not hazing. If the answer is no then it is most definitely hazing.

[shinerbock]

Alright then. What are the benefits of lineups? They test the knowledge of the pledges, make them depend on each other, make them responsible for each other.

What is the benefit of a road trip (in this case, dropping them somewhere and making them accomplish something, or get back to the fraternity house)? Once again, requires the pledges to overcome difficulty and personal disagreements in order to achieve a common goal.

Basically ALL hazing has a point. The only hazing I really think is stupid, is that which recklessly endangers (hitting them, making them take risks that really are dangerous, exposing them to the elements for extended periods...). All the other stuff has a point behind it.

[KyleMcGuire1983]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Alright then. What are the benefits of lineups? They test the knowledge of the pledges, make them depend on each other, make them responsible for each other.

What is the benefit of a road trip (in this case, dropping them somewhere and making them accomplish something, or get back to the fraternity house)? Once again, requires the pledges to overcome difficulty and personal disagreements in order to achieve a common goal.

Basically ALL hazing has a point. The only hazing I really think is stupid, is that which recklessly endangers (hitting them, making them take risks that really are dangerous, exposing them to the elements for extended periods...). All the other stuff has a point behind it.

I joined a local non-greek house at Whittier College that hazed the hell out of me. Hazing included physical calisthenics, getting hosed down with water and being forced to "play" in the mud, one ceremonial paddling that hurt like a bitch, an "orientation test" (being dropped in the middle of nowhere with pledge brothers and given $20 to get home), and doing offical greetings in public (lining up as a class and shouting "GOOD AFTERNOON BROTHER SO AND SO!" in unison in a public setting like a dining hall), line ups and isolated interrogations.

The "societies" at Whittier got away with all of this with implicit knowledge of the school because they were the big donors! Whittier is a small private school and it's the Society alumni that donate, in exchange the administration looks the otherway during blatent hazing situations. All the aforemented hazing happened ON CAMPUS (minus the orientation test), some Societies even had their pledges construct a beer sofa on the quad with empty cans that they had drank.

I joined Sigma Nu because of it's foundation on honor and non-hazing. Of course candidates are required to know the history of the fraternity but that doesn't mean we need to line up pledges and drill them, screaming at them when they slip up a word or two of the open creed. Line ups are totally ridiculous and create robots, not leaders. Pledges should be self-motivated. If a pledge isn't holding his weight and participating in his own fraternal education then that is what the Depledgement option is for.

[shinerbock]

Kyle, while some of that may be banned, I don't really see what the problem of most/any of it is. Seems to me all those things had relevant points. We did many things similar to all of those, and while difficult, they were also fun. People often speak about how hazing harms self esteem. "Hazing," done correctly, builds both brotherhood and personal confidence. It takes strong people and makes them into responsible and confident adults. My personal opinion is that if you can't handle it, don't pledge. There are obviously other places you can go if you want an easy walkthrough pledgeship.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Kyle, while some of that may be banned, I don't really see what the problem of most/any of it is. Seems to me all those things had relevant points. We did many things similar to all of those, and while difficult, they were also fun. People often speak about how hazing harms self esteem. "Hazing," done correctly, builds both brotherhood and personal confidence. It takes strong people and makes them into responsible and confident adults. My personal opinion is that if you can't handle it, don't pledge. There are obviously other places you can go if you want an easy walkthrough pledgeship.

Shiner-After seeing many of your comments, after a very long, hot, and tiring day at work, my first thought is that you may truly believe that what was done in say the 1800's is the only way to do things.

The trouble is at all too often "Hazing" is done just because.....NOT to build "Brotherhood" and "Personal confidence" ( which from your own prior posts is only your chapter house and NOT your National group).

All too often these days people get hurt or worse. Which is where the Risk Coverage that you love to be covered by your Nation comes into play.

But since Nations do not enjoy paying High premiums, that is where Risk Management comes in.

My old chapter, back in the day, came very close to crossing the line and we saw it, understood it and STOPPED it. We understood that while some negitives can be, if used in small amounts (like a line-up), one is far better to use positive matters.
And the reason that my house is now occupied by the Sigma Nu's ( I have met them and they are nice but...IN MY HOUSE LOL) is that they did not see it, understand it nor did they stop it.

Chapter houses of GLO, or any living group for that matter have to be smarter on how they handle personall matters. Just like the real world that is facing them down the road. Just like Law School for you Shiner and beyond.

Time for dinner and some very cold water.....

[Elephant Walk]

The trouble is at all too often "Hazing" is done just because.....NOT to build "Brotherhood" and "Personal confidence" ( which from your own prior posts is only your chapter house and NOT your National group).

As we've mentioned many times before, the hazing in Southern chapters is primarily to build values (that one should have anyways before the fraternity and so therefore not difficult).

[shinerbock]

Jon, I understand much of what you're saying. As a former risk director for our IFC, I know the situation universities and HQ's are in. However, I don't feel that covering their bases is an adequate reason for a lot of the rules they impose. Much of it has little to do with physical hazing, and more on the idea of protecting self esteem. Basically, this is what I think should be done. I think HQ's should obviously be against hazing, but should take action only when the hazing is dangerous. The same with the Universities. Basically my problem is not with them covering their ass, but rather with the general sentiment coming from our HQ's and Universities. I don't want them to go "We recognize the value of beating kids," but I would like to see the end of them interpreting pledges as some fragile impressionable youth they have to protect from emotional damage. These guys are men, and they should be treated as such. Another reason I argue for the value of hazing is that many on this site really don't understand that it does work. Ask the military. Ask politicians, lawyers, doctors, and our fathers. I'm not asking that we be given free reign to beat the crap out of kids, I'm simply asking to not get in trouble for making pledgeship a journey rather than cakewalk. I think pledges should come out of pledgeship as changed, fraternity men. Thats how we operate, and we consistantly see our new brothers have more confidence,more loyalty to one another, better manners and improved social ability.