Israel at War?

[shinerbock]

You must be kidding me. Since when are wars fought based on proportion. Proportional response is a terribly useless military tactic which becomes even more so considering the enemy in this situation. So when Al Qaeda destroyed the WTC and hit the Pentagon, we should only go in and kill that many people, and do that amount of damage? This is not an eye for an eye situation for Israel. They are in a position where strong force is REQUIRED. They have to go in and eliminate these terrorists, whose goals include the complete destruction of Israel. Can you imagine Americans' outrage if we went in, killed a couple thousand terrorists after 9/11, then packed up and headed back, with Al Qaeda still alive and well? What do you expect Israel to do? Should they just react in a proportional manner, only to wait around for more rockets to hit their cities? The enemy Israel is dealing has no respect for human life, and the only reasonable course of action for Israel is to protect it's citizens by eradicating the terrorist organizations which threaten it.

[Kevin]

A proportional response for Israel would be for it to do to its unfriendly neighbors exactly what those neighbors would have done to Israel.

A proportional response would include the eradication of those countries.

So no, fortunately for these terrorist rogue states, Israel's response has not been proportional. If Israel showed the same lack of care for human life, there would be no conflict for us to debate.

[RACooper]

Sigh... this is what I hated the most about being the UN guy stuck in the middle. It seems in every recent conflict that each side sees itself as the embodyment of justice/good/truth/right, while at the same time reviling their enemies as being unrepentantly evil... The problem is that each side (and their supporters) begin to believe their own propaganda, and begin to lose sight of the fact that they are fighting and killing other human beings.

Yes Israel has the right to both defend itself, and strike back at the terrorists that attacked her... however that doesn't mean that Israel has the freedom or right to bomb the living-sh-t out of Lebanon to "teach them a lesson", nor does Israel have the right to turn the south into a wasteland. Israel declared war on Hezbollah, not Lebanon...

Now I'm sure you hear a lot of crap about Lebanon being a "rogue-state" or a "terrorist-state", which is a nice rallying cry for the warmongers... to bad it falls far short of the truth. Afterall this is the country that we here in the West were applauding for it's secular and intigrated Christian/Mulsim society that was embracing Democracy and freedom. Yes Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, but that is in reality it's secondary function or goal ~ truth be told it is one of the more effective social support and security groups in the Middle East... one only needs to look into it's social support programs, schools, hospitals, pension funds, and children/elderly care network to see it's overall impact on Lebanese culture.

Now if one had bothered to read any of the intelligence briefings or primers (CIA, JANES, CSIS) on Hezbollah's place in Lebanon over the past 4 years, one might have been struck by the diminishing power of the militant wing of Hezbollah, and the increasing power of the social/political factions. So one can also assume that the militant-wing's power is supreme now as many Lebanese look to them (and not the government) for a way to strike back at the Israeli's bombing them... in short Israel has changed the direction that Hezbollah, and perhaps Lebanese society as a whole, creating a reborn and re-energized terrorist group bent on the destruction of Israel.

Now as for comparisons to 9/11 and the laughable scenarios tossed forth in an effort to weaken my observations... how very Republican of y'all, invoking 9/11 to counter any arguement

However if you want me to throw back a counter example, why not look at the IRA and Britian's response to them? When Lord Mountbatten was assassinated or when a platoon of Paras were ambushed did Britain turns around and bomb the living-sh-t out of Ireland? No. Instead the went after the only the terrorists... did the IRA have political seats in Ireland? Yep (heck they had one seat in the British Parliament). Did that mean that Ireland was a terrorist state, or supporter of terrorism? No. Most of the funding for the IRA came from criminal acts and sponsors abroad. Why didn't Britain go after the IRA cells and support in Ireland with massive military might? Because they didn't want to empower their enemies, nor did they want to create a plethora of eager new recruits, nor did they want to create another generation outraged by British "atrocities"... in short the British looked at the big picture and the long term goal of what they wanted to accomplish ~ something perhaps Israel could have learned from.

[Rudey]

It would be great if you could stop taking swipes at America as well.

-Rudey

Originally Posted by RACooper

Sigh... this is what I hated the most about being the UN guy stuck in the middle. It seems in every recent conflict that each side sees itself as the embodyment of justice/good/truth/right, while at the same time reviling their enemies as being unrepentantly evil... The problem is that each side (and their supporters) begin to believe their own propaganda, and begin to lose sight of the fact that they are fighting and killing other human beings.

Yes Israel has the right to both defend itself, and strike back at the terrorists that attacked her... however that doesn't mean that Israel has the freedom or right to bomb the living-sh-t out of Lebanon to "teach them a lesson", nor does Israel have the right to turn the south into a wasteland. Israel declared war on Hezbollah, not Lebanon...

Now I'm sure you hear a lot of crap about Lebanon being a "rogue-state" or a "terrorist-state", which is a nice rallying cry for the warmongers... to bad it falls far short of the truth. Afterall this is the country that we here in the West were applauding for it's secular and intigrated Christian/Mulsim society that was embracing Democracy and freedom. Yes Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, but that is in reality it's secondary function or goal ~ truth be told it is one of the more effective social support and security groups in the Middle East... one only needs to look into it's social support programs, schools, hospitals, pension funds, and children/elderly care network to see it's overall impact on Lebanese culture.

Now if one had bothered to read any of the intelligence briefings or primers (CIA, JANES, CSIS) on Hezbollah's place in Lebanon over the past 4 years, one might have been struck by the diminishing power of the militant wing of Hezbollah, and the increasing power of the social/political factions. So one can also assume that the militant-wing's power is supreme now as many Lebanese look to them (and not the government) for a way to strike back at the Israeli's bombing them... in short Israel has changed the direction that Hezbollah, and perhaps Lebanese society as a whole, creating a reborn and re-energized terrorist group bent on the destruction of Israel.

Now as for comparisons to 9/11 and the laughable scenarios tossed forth in an effort to weaken my observations... how very Republican of y'all, invoking 9/11 to counter any arguement

However if you want me to throw back a counter example, why not look at the IRA and Britian's response to them? When Lord Mountbatten was assassinated or when a platoon of Paras were ambushed did Britain turns around and bomb the living-sh-t out of Ireland? No. Instead the went after the only the terrorists... did the IRA have political seats in Ireland? Yep (heck they had one seat in the British Parliament). Did that mean that Ireland was a terrorist state, or supporter of terrorism? No. Most of the funding for the IRA came from criminal acts and sponsors abroad. Why didn't Britain go after the IRA cells and support in Ireland with massive military might? Because they didn't want to empower their enemies, nor did they want to create a plethora of eager new recruits, nor did they want to create another generation outraged by British "atrocities"... in short the British looked at the big picture and the long term goal of what they wanted to accomplish ~ something perhaps Israel could have learned from.

[shinerbock]

You're right, Israel's situation isn't like 9/11. Its probably worse. Sure we as Americans have terrorism in the back of our minds, somewhere, but for Israelis, it is in the forefront, EVERYONE has been touched by it, and everyone must live in constant fear of it. Also, the IRA example is terrible. You act as though the British simply singled out the terrorists...Forgetting the fact that they beat, killed and spit on the Irish in the north, regardless of whether they were actually members of IRA or the PIRA. Now if Israel began going in and beating up everybody who was thought to sympathize with Hezbollah, that would be similar to some of what the British did in the North.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

You're right, Israel's situation isn't like 9/11. Its probably worse. Sure we as Americans have terrorism in the back of our minds, somewhere, but for Israelis, it is in the forefront, EVERYONE has been touched by it, and everyone must live in constant fear of it. Also, the IRA example is terrible. You act as though the British simply singled out the terrorists...Forgetting the fact that they beat, killed and spit on the Irish in the north, regardless of whether they were actually members of IRA or the PIRA. Now if Israel began going in and beating up everybody who was thought to sympathize with Hezbollah, that would be similar to some of what the British did in the North.

Ah yes because that's exactly what the British did That the Brits "beat, killed, and spit on the Irish in the North"... first off if that were true it would have been entirely counterproductive to do that to the population that they were "protecting"... or do you mean that they singled out the Catholics as IRA sympathizers? 'Cause if that's the case it also falls far short of the truth as well ~ the vast majority (something like 83%) of asssaults or violent confrontations didn't involve the Brits but rather Protestant terrorists going after Catholics... and Catholic terrorists going after Protestants. I do find it interesting that you are using the exact same arguements (degredation and oppression of people) as a justification for a terror group that the Palestinians are... interesting how perspectives can change isn't it?

[shinerbock]

Yes, that is what they did. If you're under some impression that the Orange and Ulster volunteer groups worked completely independent of the UK, you're sorely mistaken. To say the British were at all humane in their treatment of Irish Catholics is simply untrue. Everyone knows about the controversy surrounding the UDR, including the intimidation of catholics who originally supported them. Much of my family is from Antrim, and as protestants even we have trouble justifying the actions by both the protestant groups and the British military. UK in the 1990s attempted to save face by deeming the ulster groups as terrorist orgs, but it clearly did not make up for decades of mistreatment. Note, I don't support the IRA or their actions, but to say the British were never aggressors or violators is simply untrue. As to your comments regarding the Palestinians, I'm not really sure what you're getting at. If you are comparing the IRA to the PLO, you're sorely mistaken. While Irish terrorism did kill civilians, it was rarely, if ever, aimed at civilians. The Palestinians however, continually target civilians. IRA attacks were most often aimed at UDR and RUC personel, along with civilians who worked in coordination with them. While I don't view this as acceptable, it is quite different from a Hamas suicide bomber walking into a crowded restaurant or city bus. Truly civilian death was an unfortunate byproduct of IRA action, while it is the centerpiece of middle eastern terror organizations. People often forget what Israel is going through. This is not a Northern Irish situation where they simply care about land, or independence. The IRA wanted a unified Ireland, and truly cared about the welfare of the Irish people, despite their violent tactics. The middle eastern organizations Israel deals with do not view Israel as anything more than animals to be slaughtered. Simply put, they do not wish to be left alone, they long for the eradication of Israel, and often the eradication of the Jewish people.