Israel at War?

shinerbock · #1 07-13-2006, 08:22 PM

Well I feel sorry for some of the Lebanese*? like I did some of the Afghani people. However, I still hold their government responsible for not keeping order within their country.

RACooper · #2 07-13-2006, 10:41 PM

I know it's not going to be popular... but I agree with the EU calling it a "disproportionate force" being used by Israel. Seriously, think about it, the damage and death in Gaza and Lebanon for the sake of 3 Israeli lives? There were a myriad of other options open for the Israelis to recover the first kidnapping victim, but by using a "sledgehammer" response they provoked another kidnapping and more attacks ~ how is this resolving the issue? To me it looks like Israel was looking for an excuse to lay some "smack down" on Gaza and Lebanon... whether to remind them of who's boss; or to keep them destabilzed internally to limit there future threat...

Of course this could be because I'm worried about friends in that are in both Israel and Lebanon... and some of the areas reported hit (again on both sides) are areas that they are living and working in

shinerbock · #3 07-13-2006, 11:02 PM

I think the EU is ridiculous. As of now, over 100 missiles have been fired into Israel. I think we're beyond just kidnapping the three people. Lets not forget that a terrorist group crossed into Israel to kidnap their soldiers. This is not a one time thing, these two terrorist groups, Hamas and Hezbollah, have been calling for the end of Israel for years, and have continuously attacked Israel. We don't need a prisoner exchange to end the violence. We need to see the end of Hamas and Hezbollah. I don't buy into the idea that violence only brings more violence. Sometimes violence means game over, and I've got a feeling that Israel has that capability, and I think they should use it. The world will be much better off without these terrorist organizations. I am proud to be one of the few influential countries who sides with Israel, while others simply condone the actions of the terrorists. I saw an interesting interview tonight with Speaker Gingrich, in which he made some valid points. How often does the UN reprimand Hamas? Never. How often do they reprimand Hezbollah? Never. However, anytime Israel responds to the surrounding countries which foster terrorism, the Security Council attempts to reprimand their actions. Thank God the U.S. is there, ready and waiting with veto in hand.

RACooper · #4 07-13-2006, 11:10 PM

Hold on... you actual believe Newt?

I wondered how long it would take you to blame the UN...

_Opi_ · #5 07-13-2006, 11:19 PM

You know it's funny..I'm reading a headline over at CNN and it says "Dozens of Lebanese killed and 10 Israelis". Isn't the body count of Lebanese civilians as important as Israelis? I guess not.

shinerbock · #6 07-13-2006, 11:24 PM

Trust me,it isn't because of CNN bias. It probably has more to do with the fact that Israel is a very advanced military and can issue casualty counts quickly. Tommorows NY Times headline will probably read "Zionists Slaughter Lebanese Babies."

Despite your personal feelings on Newt, those are nonetheless good points. The UN is largely worthless.

_Opi_ · #7 07-13-2006, 11:40 PM

Shinerbock,

Do not tell that CNN is NOT biased, because for the most part it is. It's a waste of time watching it really.

Here's my take: What Israel is doing is not actually looking for their soldiers but taking advantage of the situation to attack. The sad part is, they are targetting civilians instead of the real culprits and the only thing the U.S. president is saying about the matter is "to take it easy on the weak Lebanese gov't..but hey, let's focus on Syria". But personally, I concede with Russia and France on this one. It is excessive use of force, unnecessary, unacceptable and unjust. If Israel is so militarized, why don't they just send out the Israeli Intelligence and take out the real targets. I'm sure they would have no problems finding them, instead of killing civilians to make a point. But hey, we live in the real world, I guess..*sigh*

Rudey · #8 07-14-2006, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Shinerbock,

Do not tell that CNN is NOT biased, because for the most part it is. It's a waste of time watching it really.

Here's my take: What Israel is doing is not actually looking for their soldiers but taking advantage of the situation to attack. The sad part is, they are targetting civilians instead of the real culprits and the only thing the U.S. president is saying about the matter is "to take it easy on the weak Lebanese gov't..but hey, let's focus on Syria". But personally, I concede with Russia and France on this one. It is excessive use of force, unnecessary, unacceptable and unjust. If Israel is so militarized, why don't they just send out the Israeli Intelligence and take out the real targets. I'm sure they would have no problems finding them, instead of killing civilians to make a point. But hey, we live in the real world, I guess..*sigh*

Those civilians that pushed out the Christian population? Those civilians that provide support for Hezbollah?

This is an act of war by Lebanon.

Lebanon has integrated Hezbollah into its government and it is Hezbollah that initiated this act of war. I'd love to know which modern war had no civilians die.

Oh and the fact that the Lebanese attacked pretty far into Israel and targeted Haifa clearly indicates they wanted to escalate this.

-Rudey

RACooper · #9 07-27-2006, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Yes, that is what they did. If you're under some impression that the Orange and Ulster volunteer groups worked completely independent of the UK, you're sorely mistaken. To say the British were at all humane in their treatment of Irish Catholics is simply untrue. Everyone knows about the controversy surrounding the UDR, including the intimidation of catholics who originally supported them. Much of my family is from Antrim, and as protestants even we have trouble justifying the actions by both the protestant groups and the British military. UK in the 1990s attempted to save face by deeming the ulster groups as terrorist orgs, but it clearly did not make up for decades of mistreatment. Note, I don't support the IRA or their actions, but to say the British were never aggressors or violators is simply untrue. As to your comments regarding the Palestinians, I'm not really sure what you're getting at. If you are comparing the IRA to the PLO, you're sorely mistaken. While Irish terrorism did kill civilians, it was rarely, if ever, aimed at civilians. The Palestinians however, continually target civilians. IRA attacks were most often aimed at UDR and RUC personel, along with civilians who worked in coordination with them. While I don't view this as acceptable, it is quite different from a Hamas suicide bomber walking into a crowded restaurant or city bus. Truly civilian death was an unfortunate byproduct of IRA action, while it is the centerpiece of middle eastern terror organizations. People often forget what Israel is going through. This is not a Northern Irish situation where they simply care about land, or independence. The IRA wanted a unified Ireland, and truly cared about the welfare of the Irish people, despite their violent tactics. The middle eastern organizations Israel deals with do not view Israel as anything more than animals to be slaughtered. Simply put, they do not wish to be left alone, they long for the eradication of Israel, and often the eradication of the Jewish people.

Interesting... an IRA/terrorist apologist... how'd have thought I'd see a that. To compare the IRA to the PLO is rather apt - because they shared both methods and training... and lets not forget that the IRA were the innovators of the IED, the sucide/homicde car loaded with explosives... face it the IRA specifically targeted civilians in Ireland and the UK, as well as killing those they saw as "collaborators", to claim otherwise is deluding yourself. Now if you doubt me on this I'd recommend you pick up the "A Secret History fo the IRA" by Ed Moloney... which was a required text for my Modern Irish History course.

As for the UVF/UDA or the other Prod terror groups... I hold even more contempt for them, and especially for their spiritual leader "Rev" Ian Paisley (the a--hole that was dragged out of the EU meeting for his celebration of JPII's death) - and the orgs. that support him (like Bob Jones Univserity). While the IRA terrorism was primarily politically motivated (a "free" Ireland) the Prods was religiously motivated ~ one only has to look at the speaches or press releases from each side to figure that out.

Its all well and good to reduce the Middle East to a Black & White or Good vs Evil picture... but that doesn't fit the truth of the conflict at all. To simply assume that say Hezbollah's sole goal is the eradication of Israel would to be grossly over-simplfying their motivations - yes you have some of the pure hate-mongers within the group, but you also have those seeing themselves as fighting for Palestinian freedom, others fighting to regain family lands lost to Israel in 1948, others seeing themselves as the resistance or defenders against Israeli agression, and still others who are in it for purely mercanary reasons. In short the Hezbollah is as, if not more, complex that the IRA was - who at various times were Nationalists, Fascists, Communists, Anarchists, Criminal, or Sectarian terrorists; to reduce them to simply a Catholic terrorist group is equally deluded...

tunatartare · #10 07-13-2006, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Opi_

You know it's funny..I'm reading a headline over at CNN and it says "Dozens of Lebanese killed and 10 Israelis". Isn't the body count of Lebanese civilians as important as Israelis? I guess not.

Dozens sounds more dramatic and garners more support for the Lebanese and makes the Israelis look more bloodthirsty and inhumane.

_Opi_ · #11 07-13-2006, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KLPDaisy

Dozens sounds more dramatic and garners more support for the Lebanese and makes the Israelis look more bloodthirsty and inhumane.

I guess it depends on how you look at it. Numbers are usually more concrete and unambiguous, where as "dozens" is more general.

tunatartare · #12 07-13-2006, 11:48 PM

Dozens can mean 24 or it can mean 200. People tend to associate dozens with being a higher number.

moe.ron · #13 07-14-2006, 02:38 AM

I was being cynical. Aside, there never was any peace agreement and military action can only do something for a limited time. Ultimately, political solution will bring sustainable peace in that region. It better come quickly though, the gas price are going off the roof.

starang21 · #14 07-14-2006, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KLPDaisy

Dozens sounds more dramatic and garners more support for the Lebanese and makes the Israelis look more bloodthirsty and inhumane.

according to cnn, 62 lebanese have been killed since wednesday. it doesnt' specify who they're with.

Rudey · #15 07-14-2006, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Opi_

You know it's funny..I'm reading a headline over at CNN and it says "Dozens of Lebanese killed and 10 Israelis". Isn't the body count of Lebanese civilians as important as Israelis? I guess not.

The Lebanese have determined that their lives are worthless.

They support Hezbollah and want their virgins when they die.

If they value their lives, they shouldn't do this.

Israel should have killed 100 men in the jails every single hour that the kidnappers held an Israeli.

If Europe wants to bargain with the Arabs, let them. But Israel shouldn't have to. Israel is not in Lebanon. The UN has verified the full withdrawal.

-Rudey