Israel at War?

Rudey · #1 07-13-2006, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I'm surprised to see the support for Israel. When I heard what the EU said, I thought the complete opposite...I'm surprised Israel has had this much restraint over the years. I feel bad for Lebanon, they are truly under seige, but I do not disagree with Israel for taking action. What does concern me, and I'm not sure if everyone has heard this since it just recently came out, was the rather haunting warning from Iran about the response they will issue if Israel does bomb Syria. Although, in truth, I don't fear for Israel, I think everyone agrees they can handle themselves.

Who do you feel sorry for in Lebanon? The dwindling Christian population that was killed off and forced to leave and has no power now? Maybe. The country that chose not to put its own troops along the border with Israel and disarm Hezbollah? Not so much. The Christian population is small, the Muslim population is big and they support the terrorists.

Israel is attacking roads and airports that Hezbollah would use to move the kidnapped Israelis into Iran. It's so sad that they'd just do that.

-Rudey

sdsuchelle · #2 07-13-2006, 07:14 PM

Argghhh, a friend of a friend is stuck in Lebanon right now (he's American). Holy shit.

shinerbock · #3 07-13-2006, 08:22 PM

Well I feel sorry for some of the Lebanese*? like I did some of the Afghani people. However, I still hold their government responsible for not keeping order within their country.

RACooper · #4 07-13-2006, 10:41 PM

I know it's not going to be popular... but I agree with the EU calling it a "disproportionate force" being used by Israel. Seriously, think about it, the damage and death in Gaza and Lebanon for the sake of 3 Israeli lives? There were a myriad of other options open for the Israelis to recover the first kidnapping victim, but by using a "sledgehammer" response they provoked another kidnapping and more attacks ~ how is this resolving the issue? To me it looks like Israel was looking for an excuse to lay some "smack down" on Gaza and Lebanon... whether to remind them of who's boss; or to keep them destabilzed internally to limit there future threat...

Of course this could be because I'm worried about friends in that are in both Israel and Lebanon... and some of the areas reported hit (again on both sides) are areas that they are living and working in

shinerbock · #5 07-13-2006, 11:02 PM

I think the EU is ridiculous. As of now, over 100 missiles have been fired into Israel. I think we're beyond just kidnapping the three people. Lets not forget that a terrorist group crossed into Israel to kidnap their soldiers. This is not a one time thing, these two terrorist groups, Hamas and Hezbollah, have been calling for the end of Israel for years, and have continuously attacked Israel. We don't need a prisoner exchange to end the violence. We need to see the end of Hamas and Hezbollah. I don't buy into the idea that violence only brings more violence. Sometimes violence means game over, and I've got a feeling that Israel has that capability, and I think they should use it. The world will be much better off without these terrorist organizations. I am proud to be one of the few influential countries who sides with Israel, while others simply condone the actions of the terrorists. I saw an interesting interview tonight with Speaker Gingrich, in which he made some valid points. How often does the UN reprimand Hamas? Never. How often do they reprimand Hezbollah? Never. However, anytime Israel responds to the surrounding countries which foster terrorism, the Security Council attempts to reprimand their actions. Thank God the U.S. is there, ready and waiting with veto in hand.

RACooper · #6 07-13-2006, 11:10 PM

Hold on... you actual believe Newt?

I wondered how long it would take you to blame the UN...

_Opi_ · #7 07-13-2006, 11:19 PM

You know it's funny..I'm reading a headline over at CNN and it says "Dozens of Lebanese killed and 10 Israelis". Isn't the body count of Lebanese civilians as important as Israelis? I guess not.

shinerbock · #8 07-13-2006, 11:24 PM

Trust me,it isn't because of CNN bias. It probably has more to do with the fact that Israel is a very advanced military and can issue casualty counts quickly. Tommorows NY Times headline will probably read "Zionists Slaughter Lebanese Babies."

Despite your personal feelings on Newt, those are nonetheless good points. The UN is largely worthless.

tunatartare · #9 07-13-2006, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Opi_

You know it's funny..I'm reading a headline over at CNN and it says "Dozens of Lebanese killed and 10 Israelis". Isn't the body count of Lebanese civilians as important as Israelis? I guess not.

Dozens sounds more dramatic and garners more support for the Lebanese and makes the Israelis look more bloodthirsty and inhumane.

Rudey · #10 07-14-2006, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Opi_

You know it's funny..I'm reading a headline over at CNN and it says "Dozens of Lebanese killed and 10 Israelis". Isn't the body count of Lebanese civilians as important as Israelis? I guess not.

The Lebanese have determined that their lives are worthless.

They support Hezbollah and want their virgins when they die.

If they value their lives, they shouldn't do this.

Israel should have killed 100 men in the jails every single hour that the kidnappers held an Israeli.

If Europe wants to bargain with the Arabs, let them. But Israel shouldn't have to. Israel is not in Lebanon. The UN has verified the full withdrawal.

-Rudey

KillarneyRose · #11 07-14-2006, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RACooper

I know it's not going to be popular... but I agree with the EU calling it a "disproportionate force" being used by Israel. Seriously, think about it, the damage and death in Gaza and Lebanon for the sake of 3 Israeli lives? There were a myriad of other options open for the Israelis to recover the first kidnapping victim, but by using a "sledgehammer" response they provoked another kidnapping and more attacks ~ how is this resolving the issue? To me it looks like Israel was looking for an excuse to lay some "smack down" on Gaza and Lebanon... whether to remind them of who's boss; or to keep them destabilzed internally to limit there future threat...

I agree with you 100%, Rob. As do a lot of people I know in "real life", whose opinions I greatly respect.

shinerbock · #12 07-14-2006, 12:32 AM

While I understand yall's desire to keep this from escalating, I simply cannot understand how you really think Israel could respond and end the conflict. The demands made by Palestine and Hezbollah were to release many prisoners Israel was holding. I cannot fathom how you think 3 soldiers for 100 terrorists is a fair deal. Once again Israel is NOT DEALING WITH NORMAL NATIONS. Iran and Syria are terrorist states. As for the Palestinians, which liberals for some reason have long supported over the Israelis, their former leader, Arafat was one of the biggest terrorists in the world. I don't mean terrorist like some of you say Bush is a terrorist, I mean terrorist like throw a bomb into a crowded building terrorist. I support all and any action Israel uses to secure its citizens. The media is reporting that Israel is dropping leaflets for Lebanese citizens to stay away from Hezbollah strongholds. I'm pretty sure the 100 missiles into Israeli cities didn't have similar citizen warnings. Not only do I hope Israel gets their soldiers back, I hope they entirely destroy Hezbollah and Hamas. If that means killing every last one of the terrorists, so be it.

Rudey · #13 07-14-2006, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RACooper

I know it's not going to be popular... but I agree with the EU calling it a "disproportionate force" being used by Israel. Seriously, think about it, the damage and death in Gaza and Lebanon for the sake of 3 Israeli lives? There were a myriad of other options open for the Israelis to recover the first kidnapping victim, but by using a "sledgehammer" response they provoked another kidnapping and more attacks ~ how is this resolving the issue? To me it looks like Israel was looking for an excuse to lay some "smack down" on Gaza and Lebanon... whether to remind them of who's boss; or to keep them destabilzed internally to limit there future threat...

Of course this could be because I'm worried about friends in that are in both Israel and Lebanon... and some of the areas reported hit (again on both sides) are areas that they are living and working in

Yes for 3 Israeli lives they are willing to kill themselves.

Lay some smack down Rob? They cut Gaza in two to prevent movement of kidnappers and to stop rocket fire. Hezbollah said they planned this for a long time. It was not provoked because of this.

Where was Europe when Lebanon could have mobilized its army along the border so that Hezbollah would leave?

Where was Europe when Syria and Iran funded terror with a wink? Oh yeah they were busy profiting from them.

-Rudey

KSig RC · #14 07-14-2006, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RACooper

. . . by using a "sledgehammer" response they provoked another kidnapping and more attacks . . .

I absolutely abhor this train of thought - it's exactly this line of reasoning that has allowed for historical revision and the removal of personal responsibility on the part of the groups making the response, in my opinion.

At some point, we have to stop grasping for what I'd call "contextual apologist" behavior, and simply blame the parties for their actions. Saying they were 'provoked' into action is merely inches from calling their actions acceptable, justified or reasonable.

RACooper · #15 07-14-2006, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSig RC

I absolutely abhor this train of thought - it's exactly this line of reasoning that has allowed for historical revision and the removal of personal responsibility on the part of the groups making the response, in my opinion.

At some point, we have to stop grasping for what I'd call "contextual apologist" behavior, and simply blame the parties for their actions. Saying they were 'provoked' into action is merely inches from calling their actions acceptable, justified or reasonable.

Please... I hope that at no point I somehow gave the impression that were even remotely acceptable - when I use the word "provoke" i'm using it in a strategic or tactical sense... so for example if Israel had done nothing, political or military, then I think they would have been provoking more attacks and kidnappings by emboldening the terrorists through a percieved weakness...