Atheists as members?

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

Not all Christians claim that Jesus was/is divine.

Yes, they do. Hence, CHRISTian.

Please, name one denomination that doesn't.

[RU OX Alum]

Unitarian Universialist. Right there in the name. Unitarian. Not Trinitarian.

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Yes, they do. Hence, CHRISTian.

Please, name one denomination that doesn't.

The post above responses to this.

For example, King's Chapel in Boston. They edited the book of common prayer to become "Anglican in worship, Congregasional in polity, and Unitarian in Theology."

During the reformation, many Unitarians were burnt at the stake for being the wrong kind of Christian.

The Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations does not claim to be christian. YOu don't have to be christian to be a UU.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

The Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations does not claim to be christian. YOu don't have to be christian to be a UU.

You just agreed with AlphaFrog, you know that? She said that Christian denominations DO all view Jesus as divine, and then challenged you to provide the name of one Christian denomination that doesn't. The example you provided is not a Christian denomination. So, the two of you are pretty much on the same page.

I hate that I helped perpetuate this hijacking. The thread is about Atheism and membership, not about the specifics of different religions. I'm all for an intelligent discussion about such differences, but perhaps that should be its own thread... maybe in Chit Chat?

Back on topic, I think the question of what each member's religious preference is should be an issue to be dealt with only by that member. If someone is Atheist and joins a group that requires, for example, oaths to be sworn over a Bible, then it is up to that person to decide whether he/she is comfortable with that. If the person is a good brother/sister, it shouldn't matter to the chapter whether or not he/she prays and if so, to whom. Just my two cents.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Yes, they do. Hence, CHRISTian.

Please, name one denomination that doesn't.

Well the Cathars did for one, which is why the Church went after them.... but on a more modern note many denomonations that follow Gnostic teachings believe in the divinity of Jesus, but not that he was divine - or more simply that he was divinly created and guided, but not he himself of God...

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Well the Cathars did for one, which is why the Church went after them.... but on a more modern note many denomonations that follow Gnostic teachings believe in the divinity of Jesus, but not that he was divine - or more simply that he was divinly created and guided, but not he himself of God...

Like I said before, name one. "Many denominations" doesn't help the cause. I could say "Many denominations drink gerbil blood and sacrifice emus on Tuesdays", but it doesn't mean anything, because you still haven't named anyone spesific.

ETA: And I'm talking on this side of Lincoln's assassination, not when people thought the Earth was flat.

[Cube TX]

This is a bit of a hot-button topic, but here's my worthless opinion.

I'm not sure why an atheist would WANT to join an organization that proclaims itself to following a certain faith. When I was chapter vice-president we had an atheist associate who complained non-stop about our creed and associate ceremony mentioning Jesus and the Bible as ideals. Finally we had to ask him why he would join an organization whose ideals he disagreed with. He was let go because the problem snowballed as he became more upset and personally I was glad to see him go (last I heard he was a huge drug fiend after flunking out of college... have a nice day).

As a Christian would it make sense for me to join an atheist group? Of course not. I think they have their right to exist, so I don't bother them. This is just my view.

I don't think anyone should be quarantined or banned because of their beliefs, but that person should know what they're getting themselves into before spouting off about "forcing beliefs" on them. No one MADE them decide to join.

[Wolfman]

Many Greek-letter groups were founded by Christian ministers and Christianity was a central impulse motivating them in their ventures, whether Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant, etc. Altough almost all groups don't officially discriminate according to creed, in many groups there still is a strong Christian ethos. These are not side issues but they are indicative of the what these groups are. Similarly, there are historically Jewish and non-sectarian groups(Jew-Gentile) and general non-sectarian. One of the genius of the Greek-letter system is that there is something for everyone. And it also highlights the fact that Greek-letter groups are about more than wine,women(or men) and song;they were founded on much deeper principles which are often obscured.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Cube TX

I'm not sure why an atheist would WANT to join an organization that proclaims itself to following a certain faith.

Follow or adhere to a particular faith... yeah I can see that as an issue - but to follow the ideals/virtues/tennets of a faith that are common to many others... why not? After all they aren't joining because of the faith, but because of the ideals the org. espouses...

When I was chapter vice-president we had an atheist associate who complained non-stop about our creed and associate ceremony mentioning Jesus and the Bible as ideals. Finally we had to ask him why he would join an organization whose ideals he disagreed with. He was let go because the problem snowballed as he became more upset and personally I was glad to see him go (last I heard he was a huge drug fiend after flunking out of college... have a nice day).

Funny thing is he might not have had a problem up here, after all we've had many athiests, agnostics, and non-Christians join the Brotherhood ~ basically because we are careful to explain that while our Creed and AM ceremony are based on Christianity, it is the virtues espoused by Jesus and the Bible not the faith the we care more about... you can respect and follow the ideals without following the faith...

As a Christian would it make sense for me to join an atheist group? Of course not. I think they have their right to exist, so I don't bother them. This is just my view.

Why wouldn't it make sense? I have no problem joining an atheist group or organization as long as I agree with their goal/work and they don't try to push their belief in no God on me...

I don't think anyone should be quarantined or banned because of their beliefs, but that person should know what they're getting themselves into before spouting off about "forcing beliefs" on them. No one MADE them decide to join.

Well that all depends though doesn't it - afterall in the example you brought up the young man didn't seek to join a Christian organization, but rather an organization that looked to and respected Christian virtues as it's guide... if this distinction had been made clear to him and he rejected and disrespected these virtues (regardless of his feelings about the faith) then he obviously didn't belong.

I myself will admit that I have felt uncomfortable with the emphasis that some chapters place the Christian faith (or even a particular denomonation) as the actual message and mission of the Fraternity ~ when really Christianity is only the foundation, not the totality.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Like I said before, name one. "Many denominations" doesn't help the cause. I could say "Many denominations drink gerbil blood and sacrifice emus on Tuesdays", but it doesn't mean anything, because you still haven't named anyone spesific.

ETA: And I'm talking on this side of Lincoln's assassination, not when people thought the Earth was flat.

I don't really keep up on it myself, as I don't particularlly care to follow or track the myriad of Protestant denomonations, sects, and cults out there (I'm more of a Mediaeval/Early Church kinda guy) but the rejection of the divinity or humanity of Jesus was huge issue in the early Church because of Gnostic teachings..

But as for modern cases, there are some United Church groups (up here in Canada) that do not believe Jesus was God because it is impossible for something infinite (God) to be contained in something finite (Man/Jesus); and for example Unitarians don't believe that he was Divine, but the divinely inspired and greatest prophet of God... as for the plethora of little Churches run out of storefronts/warehouses/tents/people's basements who can really say as they represent so many different interpretations of Christianity...

[Tom Earp]

Regardless of waht anyone says, no one is forced to join a certain group.

If it is not for them then they can leave and find what they beleive somewhere else.

I just hope it is before they are Initiated.

[Cube TX]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

Regardless of what anyone says, no one is forced to join a certain group.

If it is not for them then they can leave and find what they believe somewhere else.

I just hope it is before they are Initiated.

This is what I'm getting at. We never told this guy "You HAVE to be Christian to be a member!" He made it a point to speak out against what was mentioned in our associate ceremony and say that it was infringing on HIS beliefs (or non-belief, if you prefer). I would NEVER change the wording in our associate ceremony, which has been around longer than I have, for one single guy who has a problem worthy of the ACLU.

I myself follow no specific denomination of Christianity. Our chapter was primarily Catholic, but there were also members who were of other faiths. When referring to an "atheist group" I meant a group that exists specifically to promote atheism. As a Christian it would make no sense for me to join such a group. My wording was misleading and I should have been more clear. My fault on that one.

[JonoBN41]

May I quote "scripture"?

From the Creed Of Lambda Chi Alpha:
"We believe in Lambda Chi Alpha, and its traditions, principles, and ideals. The crescent is our symbol...and cross is our guide..."

"RESOLUTION APPROVED BY THE FORTY-NINTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY, DENVER, COLORADO, 2002.
A Mandatory Resolution Regarding Discrimination
Be it resolved that membership selection on the basis of race, creed, color, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, or disability has no place within Lambda Chi Alpha Fraternity. The Lambda Chi Alpha Fraternity, therefore, condemns all discrimination and will actively seek to prevent it in all of its Chapters/Colonies."

From the American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition:
creed n. 1. A formal statement of religious belief; confession of faith. 2. A system of belief, principles, or opinions. , Lat. credo, I believe.

In ZAX,
Jono