Atheists as members?

[blkwebman1919]

Originally Posted by DSTRen13

For most of my life, I've been surrounded by people who only consider very select Protestant denominations to be "real" Christians - Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and my own church (since we rejected the Protestant label) were not allowed in the club.

Ironic, since the Protestant Reformation (led by Martin Luther) references those groups that separated from the Roman Catholic Church, which until then was considered the universal church. In fact, some "old-line" Catholics believe Protestants have basically "lost their way" and that the only way to salvation is for them to basically return to the "one true Faith". The Church as an institution, however, has modified their stance on that over the years.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by blkwebman1919

Ironic, since the Protestant Reformation (led by Martin Luther) references those groups that separated from the Roman Catholic Church, which until then was considered the universal church. In fact, some "old-line" Catholics believe Protestants have basically "lost their way" and that the only way to salvation is for them to basically return to the "one true Faith". The Church as an institution, however, has modified their stance on that over the years.

Yeah, nowadays it's "We're all Christians" and while it would be better if they were Catholic, they're following Christ and that's what matters.


/Loves JPII and Benedict isn't as bad as some people were afraid he would be

[RU OX Alum]

Benedict was only elected to protect him from investigations.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by blkwebman1919

Ironic, since the Protestant Reformation (led by Martin Luther) references those groups that separated from the Roman Catholic Church, which until then was considered the universal church.

I have a feeling that our Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters might disagree with the suggestion that the Roman Catholic Church was the universal church prior to the Reformation.

[AlphaFrog]

What's with all the religious debate today?? Did someone take an extra shot of Holy Spirit last night?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

What's with all the religious debate today?? Did someone take an extra shot of Holy Spirit last night?

DUDE, that would be Jesus' blood, not Holy Spirit.. you have to inhale the Holy Spirit...


Seriously people....

/not serious

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MysticCat81

I have a feeling that our Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters might disagree with the suggestion that the Roman Catholic Church was the universal church prior to the Reformation.

Prior to that schism then? The RCC was the only real Western Church, just as the Orthodox were the only real Eastern Church. They've gotten along and fought at different times throughout the years. But as far as what most people consider "Western Civ." goes, the RCC was it.

/Took a Byzantine history class, am well aware that "western" doesn't always mean what we think it means.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Prior to that schism then? The RCC was the only real Western Church, just as the Orthodox were the only real Eastern Church. They've gotten along and fought at different times throughout the years. But as far as what most people consider "Western Civ." goes, the RCC was it.

/Took a Byzantine history class, am well aware that "western" doesn't always mean what we think it means.

The point is, if the "RCC was the only real Western Church, just as the Orthodox were the only real Eastern Church," then it is rather inaccurate to say that the RCC "was considered the universal church" prior to the Reformation, don't you think? I'm sure that after the Great Schism, the Ecumenical Patriarch did not consider the Roman Catholic Church to be the universal church prior to the Reformation, anymore than he considers it so now. Universal chuch in the West, okay, but not simply the universal church. (And prior to the Great Schism, I think one would have to say that the universal church consisted of both the Roman Church and the Byzantine churches. But then the Copts, the Syriacs and others might have a beef with that statement. )

Originally Posted by Drolefille

DUDE, that would be Jesus' blood, not Holy Spirit.. you have to inhale the Holy Spirit....

Unless she meant the Holy Sprite.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MysticCat81

The point is, if the "RCC was the only real Western Church, just as the Orthodox were the only real Eastern Church," then it is rather inaccurate to say that the RCC "was considered the universal church" prior to the Reformation, don't you think? I'm sure that after the Great Schism, the Ecumenical Patriarch did not consider the Roman Catholic Church to be the universal church prior to the Reformation, anymore than he considers it so now. Universal chuch in the West, okay, but not simply the universal church. (And prior to the Great Schism, I think one would have to say that the universal church consisted of both the Roman Church and the Byzantine churches. But then the Copts, the Syriacs and others might have a beef with that statement. )

Unless she meant the Holy Sprite.

Yes but you have to consider in the frame of mind of Europeans around the Reformation. There WAS no Eastern world as far as they were concerned. Oh there was China.. and some strange stuff that came there, but they were hardly "civiliazation" in the minds of your average European. For Jean Smithe of France, as well as Juan Doe in Spain, etc.. your only option was The Church.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Yes but you have to consider in the frame of mind of Europeans around the Reformation. There WAS no Eastern world as far as they were concerned. Oh there was China.. and some strange stuff that came there, but they were hardly "civiliazation" in the minds of your average European. For Jean Smithe of France, as well as Juan Doe in Spain, etc.. your only option was The Church.

That is an interesting thought! No Eastern world which was the cradle of Civiliazation?

But, if You are talking about The Roman Catholic Religion, they wanted to rulke the known so called civilized world as in Europe.

Oh, there was a King of Turkey that had a lot to do with things of Christianity!

Check it out.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Yes but you have to consider in the frame of mind of Europeans around the Reformation. There WAS no Eastern world as far as they were concerned. Oh there was China.. and some strange stuff that came there, but they were hardly "civiliazation" in the minds of your average European. For Jean Smithe of France, as well as Juan Doe in Spain, etc.. your only option was The Church.

Perhaps for the average Johannes Doe on the street, but hardly so among the Reformers or many others of the time. John Calvin's writings show a fair degree of familiarity with and influence of Eastern Orthodox theology. Cranmer's liturgical reforms in England show familiarity with Orthodox liturgical forms. There are numerous other examples. Educated people were familiar to a greater or lesser degree with Eastern Orthodoxy. That doesn't mean that they were prepared to ask for Orthodox missions in Switzerland, but they had an understanding of the Church in its Eastern as well as Western forms, and an understanding of the history of the Church in both its Roman and Byzantine forms. And remember that there are Eastern European countries that are and have long been Orthodox rather than Catholic. So while as a practical matter the Roman Church may have been considered the only game in town in Western Europe prior to the Reformation -- with the exception of certain pre-Reformation "Protestant" groups, some of which, like the Waldensians, still exist today -- it's not because they didn't know anything about Eastern Christianity.

In some ways, the Reformers thought that Orthodoxy taught the same "errors" that they perceived in the Roman Catholic Church, while in other ways they thought that it had avoided certain "errors." Meanwhile, the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church considered the Orthodox heretical, or at least outside the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" because the Orthodox rejected the primacy of the See of Peter -- and therefore were not "One" with the See of Peter. The Orthodox likewise believed that the Roman Church had improperly "added" to the Catholic faith, thereby ceasing to be Catholic.

And, of course, politics was often at the root of what was considered "the only option."

[kerry4prez]

i think we should be tolerant of people that are all colors and religiouns and sexual choices.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MysticCat81

Perhaps for the average Johannes Doe on the street, but hardly so among the Reformers or many others of the time. John Calvin's writings show a fair degree of familiarity with and influence of Eastern Orthodox theology. Cranmer's liturgical reforms in England show familiarity with Orthodox liturgical forms. There are numerous other examples. Educated people were familiar to a greater or lesser degree with Eastern Orthodoxy. That doesn't mean that they were prepared to ask for Orthodox missions in Switzerland, but they had an understanding of the Church in its Eastern as well as Western forms, and an understanding of the history of the Church in both its Roman and Byzantine forms. And remember that there are Eastern European countries that are and have long been Orthodox rather than Catholic. So while as a practical matter the Roman Church may have been considered the only game in town in Western Europe prior to the Reformation -- with the exception of certain pre-Reformation "Protestant" groups, some of which, like the Waldensians, still exist today -- it's not because they didn't know anything about Eastern Christianity.

In some ways, the Reformers thought that Orthodoxy taught the same "errors" that they perceived in the Roman Catholic Church, while in other ways they thought that it had avoided certain "errors." Meanwhile, the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church considered the Orthodox heretical, or at least outside the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" because the Orthodox rejected the primacy of the See of Peter -- and therefore were not "One" with the See of Peter. The Orthodox likewise believed that the Roman Church had improperly "added" to the Catholic faith, thereby ceasing to be Catholic.

And, of course, politics was often at the root of what was considered "the only option."

True. And that's clearly what drove the Reformers.. (or as we Catholics call them, the LYING HERETICS WHO WILL BURN IN HELL.... I'm totally kidding)

But if they wanted to attend an Orthodox church, they were SOL without traveling quite far.

They were the ones who brought these things to the attention of the guy on the street. As I understand, Luther never really wanted to break away, just fix problems. Before the reformation, your choice was the RCC, or nothing-which could lead to problems with the Church and government.

[blkwebman1919]

Originally Posted by MysticCat81

I have a feeling that our Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters might disagree with the suggestion that the Roman Catholic Church was the universal church prior to the Reformation.

You're absolutely right, considering the schism that led to the establishment of the alternate papal seat at Constantinople.

[Stef the Pef]

Hmmm...I have to wonder about the original topic of this thread...

I have friends in Christian GLOs like Sigma Phi Lambda, Beta Upsilon Chi, Phi Kappa Chi, and Kappa Chi Alpha--for the most part, they're pretty accepting of whoever is interested in joining. Anyone know if specifically Christian organizations have a religion requirement or not? (Not that an atheist would be comfortable with the weekly chapter Bible study so much, but I have to wonder...?)