Does your HQ *really* want to know about hazing?

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by bows&toes

They definatly look the other way if it's a big prominent chapter at a school with a great greek system such as Alabama, Ole Miss, Texas, etc. This has been proven time and time again. You think DKE will ever pull the Yale chapter for hazing? Don't hold your breath.

If you're some podunk chapter in NJ, they wont think twice of revoking you.

While I would need to dig through some records for details, I do know that SAE has put the hurt onto "big"/"prominent" chapters when they have crossed the line. I know MIT was shut down several year ago.

And it most likly happens every where, you and I just do not know about it.

A very down and dirty search found the history of GLO at San Diego State University:
http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/cfsl/document...eekHistory.DOC

And another down and dirty search using Chapter hazing closing came up with a long list to review, including this one about a 91 year old Phi Delt chapter house:
http://www.dailyutahchronicle.com/me...hchronicle.com

Or a 107 year old Fiji chapter:
http://columbiamissourian.com/news/story.php?ID=19494

And to cover both sides, The University of Michigan chapter of the Alpha Epsilon Phi
http://www.bgnews.com/media/storage/...www.bgnews.com

Please feel free to do you own search , but please do it before you make a statement that closings do not ever happen to big, proud chapters...........

[Tom Earp]

Harsh, but maybe very true.

Only The Members can change things and if they dont, then, whoses fault is that?

We all have General Assemblys that are attended by Members.

HQs set the tone, but if there are enough people who are not happy, it can be changed.

Dont just complain, do something about the problem.

[shinerbock]

Alright, sorry I haven't been keeping up, I'll try and respond but if I miss something remind me and i'll get to it. Regarding change, sure obviously the members have a certain amount of power, and I have been to both national conventions, as well as led focus groups at regional convention regarding recruitment practices and new member education. Maybe I mispoke regarding an overhaul, because I'm not sure that the national organization really could help us other than to have a sort of "hands off" policy, which they basically do. My chapter does well in recruitment, is good on campus, but I think the frustration that my brothers have involve the lack of emphasis nationals puts on realistic improvement. Having turned our chapter around about 15 years ago, I think the guys wish that our fraternity was better nationwide, instead of just in a handful of locations. However, like many national organizations, ours focuses mostly on more of what I would consider to be PC practices. They don't speak much about increasing your campus reputation or getting the best guys in rush, but rather about how to foster diversity and avoid what they consider hazing. I realize to many those things are important, but in our view, they don't really make a fraternity better. It often seems as if they care about numbers and diversity far more than they care about what the end result will be....moving on...In addition to the "PC" things I was talking about, one that really bothered people around my chapter was when nationals changed a part of our literature from "Christian" to "religious." The lines they changed were not just in membership literature, but in several statements which shape the entire foundation of our fraternity. Granted, we continue to use Christian, but the reason for the change indicated to us the direction nationals was moving towards. Regarding telling you my fraternity, I'd rather not, simply because of some of the things I've said that may have ruffled some feathers. I also don't really see that it is important. Also, somebody mentioned whether I would call somebody not from my chapter a brother...To be honest, I'm not sure. I really don't use the term that often to begin with, but I realize thats not really what you're asking. I imagine what you'd rather know is whether I consider myself and my chapter a part of a larger whole, or a seperate entity, and I think its probably some of both. Unfortunately we view the larger whole to be moving away from our ideals, so in that respect we might not wish to be associated. However, regarding the core ideals and the way we feel they are to be practiced, we proudly associate with those. I probably forgot somebody's comment, but i'll get back to it.

[jon1856]

Nice posting but you either gloss over some issues of interested or missed them.

As this posting started on the topic of Risk Management and Hazing et al., you may wish to review the postings on that issue, the links which I provided are just the start.....but they do seem to show that several comments made here were inaccuate...

Your comments about your feelings ( and you seem to be also speaking for rest of your local chapter as well ) while well laid out seem to at times run against each other.

Long story short, drop your National indentification and go local. Your chapter seems to have major issues with you National which are not going to change.

This comment of yours alone:"Also, somebody mentioned whether I would call somebody not from my chapter a brother...To be honest, I'm not sure. I really don't use the term that often to begin with, but I realize thats not really what you're asking. I imagine what you'd rather know is whether I consider myself and my chapter a part of a larger whole, or a seperate entity, and I think its probably some of both. Unfortunately we view the larger whole to be moving away from our ideals, so in that respect we might not wish to be associated. However, regarding the core ideals and the way we feel they are to be practiced, we proudly associate with those." I find 'odd'.
Partly because of your prior postings, in several threads, on Hazing and Drugs, and partly because of what I experienced, learned and believe in the GLO system, and partly because some of your statements run up against each other.

Another thougth/question. You seem to be speaking for yourself and the rest of your 'friends' (as you do not seem able to use Brother). Are you also speaking for the younger members? Are you speaking for your Pledges who most likly do not know or understand what else is going on between you and your National? And if your Pledges ( and for that matter Rushees) are not aware of situation, how can they make any kind of imformed decision on weither or not to join your National Fraternity and chapter of it.

But this is a big world and we all, at least in this culture, have the right to our own experienes, beliefs, thoughts and actions ( as long as they to not cause any harm to others)

[33girl]

While sb can be a jag, I do understand what he's saying here.

He (and I guess his chapter) feels that while the fraternity was founded on things they do believe in, the current leadership of the fraternity isn't following those original ideals and that they've caved to outside pressures. I completely understand the "Christian" to "religious" thing and griping about that. They're not the same thing.

How many times do we hear people talk about corporations and say "what's happening is the opposite of what {insert founder here} would have wanted"? Most people just go on and don't think about it, or the most they'll do is dump their stock and wash their hands of the company. Very few stay around and try to get the company back to where it should be.

There is a difference between changing with the times and going against why you were founded just to placate universities or the press or whoever.

[shinerbock]

Well lets see. I'm not completely sure what I missed or what you you think runs together, but I'll try and respond. Regarding becoming a local fraternity, I don't think it is logistically feasible. Trust me, if we could do it and keep things the same, I think we would. I think I am different than many on this board because my greek affiliation is one that is more towards my local chapter, my school, and the entire southern greek system than anything else. I think most southern greeks would identify loyalty to their school, southern and Christian values, and loyalty to their friends and brothers as their ideals. Regarding speaking for my chapter, I'm sure there are some differences, but seeing as it is often discussed, I think I would be appropriately representative. I think when we take pride in our fraternity, we take pride in our philanthropic and social efforts, much moreso than those of the national organization. Likewise we also take pride in our southern and Christian heritage and beliefs, and the general way we carry ourselves. Obviously much of this isn't really part of our national HQ's identity. Regarding your comments about addressing each another as brother, I disagree on this point as well. For formal situations, sure I would, or I introduce often as "this is my fraternity brother..." but we don't generally take it farther than that. We are a group of very good friends, who always will back one another and give each other a leg up. I realize this may offend some who subscribe to the fraternity manual idea that brotherhood trumps all and is the most important thing in life, but to each their own. Regarding why we couldnt go local, southern campuses arent overly fostering of local fraternities, and like I said, I'm not sure how the University would handle our land lease, insurance, etc...Please let me know what I missed, and I'll get back to it.

[jon1856]

I will start my list with what I said up front: This thread started with or about RM/Hazing. Within this thread, and others, you have stated your perseptions/opinions without any backup or evidence. I provided some and you seemed to have missed it.

And even though I went to school in the NW, I have spent time with Southern Brothers. And I do not recall anything close to:"I think most southern greeks would identify loyalty to their school, southern and Christian values,....." And it it the first time I have ever seen it talked about on any kind of GLO board. Except when talking about Hazing and the Good Old Days.....Down South ( which is usually a code for other "non-PC correct" stuff and somthing I have not heard in the eary 2000's and if I did, it would really bother me....to the point of taking some form of reaction or action)
So perhaps the answer is: "I think I am different than many on this board because my greek affiliation is one that is more towards my local chapter,"
which again goes against everything I have ever experienced, been taught,observed et al....about my chapter house, my fraternity, and the general GLO.

And this comment:"Likewise we also take pride in our southern and Christian heritage and beliefs, and the general way we carry ourselves" is very interesting given some of your prior postings.

And you say this:"We are a group of very good friends, who always will back one another and give each other a leg up. I realize this may offend some who subscribe to the fraternity manual idea that brotherhood trumps all and is the most important thing in life, but to each their own. Regarding why we couldnt go local, southern campuses arent overly fostering of local fraternities, and like I said, I'm not sure how the University would handle our land lease, insurance, etc"....but when I asked you about your rushees and pledges, you failed to answer that whole question.

You seem to want to pick from the University and National just what you want/need and ignore all else. You want a bed, a roof, a beer hall, and the insurance to cover RM but nothing else....? Again, do your rushees and pledges know this? Do they know that you seem to be turning into a near renegade group:"We are a group of very good friends, who always will back one another and give each other a leg up." That sounds more like a Dinning Club to me.

Changes can be from "outside pressures" ie the Real World. Many things have changed since the 1800's. Not all changes are wall paper to make things just look better to press, just to placate universities or whoever and what ever. Groups are not isolated from society. Because they are groups, they attact attention from society and if running outside of it......All groups.