Underground Chapters

[33girl]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
There is only one widely accepted definition of an underground chapter.

Its is a fully chartered chapter that is not recognized by its host institution.

Its that simple.

Not really. There are schools (Santa Clara and Franklin & Marshall come to mind) where the chapters aren't or weren't recognized by the school, but there is no punishment for joining them and they have the full support of their national org. I would hardly call that "underground" - simply unrecognized. Underground makes them sound like outlaws, which they are not.

I would guess that for more people, "underground" means a group that was formerly a chapter of a national org that continues to operate under the national org's name without their or the school's blessing.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
There is only one widely accepted definition of an underground chapter.

Its is a fully chartered chapter that is not recognized by its host institution.

Its that simple.

Well then almost all Canadian chapters are underground by that definition...

I always thought that an underground chapter was one that still used the images and letters of their org. after their charter had been pulled...

[Tom Earp]

As I said somewhere, there are Schools who while they do not Recognize Greeks, do tolerate and behind the scenes support them as part of The Campi. It is called $$$ from Alums.

If THE SCHOOL gives approval to said NHQs, they will be willing to work within the peramiters.

I checked with Our IHQ, and there is no statement policy for underground groups.

Again, the saddest part is the new young people who come in maybe hoping or not being actually told!

Again as I said, Schools such as Alfred in NY flat said You are not welcome here. Off damn spot. So All Did!

Sorry, that to me is their lose as a school.

[alphaalpha]

Quick Question:

Here is the situation
If a chapter is not recognized by the university for a specific period of time, lets say Jan to Dec 31, 2005. The sorority was a recognized colonized chapter but got penalized for some time of infraction. Now this sorority has a house that is considered off campus, freshman have to live in the dorms and can not live in the sorority house.

So, here is the question:

Can this sorority members
1) live in the house,

2) still behave as a chapter as in have in house sisterhood events, ect, even though they may not particpate in campus activities like greek week (for example)

3) have ritual (again in house) say like members going through active to alumni ceremony.

Would these activities be considered an underground chapter, cause they are not recognized by the university, until their probation is over?

[AGDee]

I guess it would depend on whose definition you use. I think it depends on their National organization's view on it. If they haven't pulled their charter, as far as I'd be concerned, they're still an official chapter. Apparently there are some differences whether the university is public or private too. It sounds like, from a legal standpoint, private institutions have more power because public universities can't restrict the freedom of association. If students are free to choose where they live after their freshman year, then they should be free to choose where they live, whether its an off campus apartment or an off campus house owned by a sorority. That whole thing seems weird to me because Eastern Michigan never knew where I was living once I was out of the dorms. I used my parents' address since I was moving all the time, so how does the University even know where you're living? You could be commuting from home for all they know.

Since I have a lot of experience with a chapter (U of Toronto) where no NICs/NPCs/NPHCs are recognized, but they are in great standing with Alpha Gamma Delta, they are not underground in my eyes. I wouldn't consider them underground unless they were closed by our headquarters and continued to function as a sorority, either using our letters or switching to a local. The danger in the latter situation is that they have no liability insurance, no alumnae/advisor guidance and are putting the national organization at risk by their very existance.

Dee

[CarolinaCutie]

Of course, it also depends on why the host institution doesn't recognize them. In AGDee's example, I wouldn't define the U of Toronto chapter as an underground chapter, because the school doesn't recognize Greek organizations in general.

But at my school, we have a national organization who has lost university recognition (and has not regained it after several years) but continues to maintain their charter from their national. Because there are other Greek orgs that are recognized on campus, our IFC and Greek advisor discourage men from rushing that house because they do not have any of the benefits of university affiliation. Although they are still recognized as a chapter, I would consider this more of an "underground" situation than the first.

[33girl]

Originally posted by alphaalpha
Quick Question:

Here is the situation
If a chapter is not recognized by the university for a specific period of time, lets say Jan to Dec 31, 2005. The sorority was a recognized colonized chapter but got penalized for some time of infraction. Now this sorority has a house that is considered off campus, freshman have to live in the dorms and can not live in the sorority house.

So, here is the question:

Can this sorority members
1) live in the house,

2) still behave as a chapter as in have in house sisterhood events, ect, even though they may not particpate in campus activities like greek week (for example)

3) have ritual (again in house) say like members going through active to alumni ceremony.

Would these activities be considered an underground chapter, cause they are not recognized by the university, until their probation is over?

If the house is off campus and not recognized as official sorority housing by the school, anyone can live there that the sorority desires to have live there.

As for 2 & 3 - is the chapter being recolonized? Is the sorority OK with its nationals but not the school? I mean, the main thing here is whether the sorority's HQ still says they are an active chapter. I doubt they would let them take members or do Greek week if the school says no, but they would probably still be doing everything else (meetings, ritual etc) if the national considers them an active chapter.

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
There is only one widely accepted definition of an underground chapter.

Its is a fully chartered chapter that is not recognized by its host institution.

Its that simple.

I don't agree with your definition. I don't think it's that simple.

My chapter is a fully chartered chapter. We are paid visits by our HQ officials. We send in our dues, reports, etc. We have an organized alumnae advisory committee. We are 100% recognized by our HQ's.

I feel that the underground implies that you are operating in secret. While the GLOs are not recognized by my university. No group is operating in secret. The university knows we are there, and as long as we follow university policy, they cannot touch us.

[emb021]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
There is only one widely accepted definition of an underground chapter.

Its is a fully chartered chapter that is not recognized by its host institution.

Its that simple.

Not in my organization.

An underground chapter is one that is NOT chartered by our NHQ.

If a chapter is not recognized by its host institution, they also loose their charter, as that is a requirement to be chartered. We do not charter chapters that the host school won't recognize. That is one of the first requirements to (re-)chartering a chapter.

[TSteven]

I can reply with respect to three different fraternities on three different campuses that should be applicable to sororities as well.

Background: One chapter was on probation for grades, another for a "prank" that was not *appreciated* by the host institution, and the other because of a "minor infraction". I don't recall what it was but most likely either alcohol or hazing related. Each chapter was put on "social probation" by their HQ, their university and their IFC. In two cases, they owned their houses, but were on campus. The other the house was off campus.

1) live in the house,

A. Yes. In each case, the chapter was allowed to live in their house. One chapter, which didn't have one at the time, had a "house director" (house mother perhaps) appointed by the university and was paid for by the chapter. Not sure if the others were required as well or if they already had a house director.

2) still behave as a chapter as in have in house *brotherhood* events, ect, even though they may not particpate in campus activities like greek week (for example)

A. Yes. As part of their social probation, they could not have any parties or events at their house at all. And had limited "guest hours" imposed. And as you noted, they could not participate in any campus activities as well.

However...

The chapters were allowed to have limited activities & raise money for their philanthropy. The activities were limited to service.

One chapter was allowed some limited house events. I think it was for parents weekend and for alumni at homecoming and their founder's day.

And one chapter had a tradition where alumni hosted a dinner at a local banquet hall or restaurant. Since this was an "up and up" kind of event - parents, university officials, other invited Greeks, community folk in attendance, i.e. well behaved - approval was given for the chapter to attend.

3) have ritual (again in house) say like members going through active to alumni ceremony.

Yes. All had meetings, ritual etc. and were able to attend their conferences etc.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by 33girl
Not really. There are schools (Santa Clara and Franklin & Marshall come to mind) where the chapters aren't or weren't recognized by the school, but there is no punishment for joining them and they have the full support of their national org. I would hardly call that "underground" - simply unrecognized. Underground makes them sound like outlaws, which they are not.

I would guess that for more people, "underground" means a group that was formerly a chapter of a national org that continues to operate under the national org's name without their or the school's blessing.

Franklin & Marshall's entire greek system, until this year, was underground. Our chapter there was part of that.

The reason why a former chapter is not an underground chapter is simple. A chapter, of anything, implies that it is part of a division of a parent organization. If it is no longer chartered, it is no longer a chapter of anything.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
I don't agree with your definition. I don't think it's that simple.

My chapter is a fully chartered chapter. We are paid visits by our HQ officials. We send in our dues, reports, etc. We have an organized alumnae advisory committee. We are 100% recognized by our HQ's.

I feel that the underground implies that you are operating in secret. While the GLOs are not recognized by my university. No group is operating in secret. The university knows we are there, and as long as we follow university policy, they cannot touch us.

Chapters are not underground with relation to the parent organization. They are underground with relation to the host institution.

If there is some defining relationship between your chapter and your university (i.e. "as long as we follow university policy, they cannot touch us") then you are not underground.

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
Chapters are not underground with relation to the parent organization. They are underground with relation to the host institution.

If there is some defining relationship between your chapter and your university (i.e. "as long as we follow university policy, they cannot touch us") then you are not underground.

I still disagree with your definition of underground. "Underground" in this case implies that groups are organized/behaving in secret, whether that be in secret from their HQ or their host institution.

In my chapter's case, nothing is secret. The university knows we are there. We are simply unrecognized. We receive no funds from the university, we have no rights to promote ourselves on university property (aside from the basic promotion that ALL students have, i.e painting the cannon). That's what I mean by following university policy. If the university says we cannot advertise in certain places, like residence halls, then we don't.

Again, we aren't engaged in any clandestine behaviour, as the term underground would imply.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
I still disagree with your definition of underground. "Underground" in this case implies that groups are organized/behaving in secret, whether that be in secret from their HQ or their host institution.

In my chapter's case, nothing is secret. The university knows we are there. We are simply unrecognized. We receive no funds from the university, we have no rights to promote ourselves on university property (aside from the basic promotion that ALL students have, i.e painting the cannon). That's what I mean by following university policy. If the university says we cannot advertise in certain places, like residence halls, then we don't.

Again, we aren't engaged in any clandestine behaviour, as the term underground would imply.

and this is exactly how 95% of Canadian campuses are in relation to greeks - not recognition, but perhaps apathetic acceptance.... except of course for UBC, Wilfred Laurier, and Calgary where they are recognized by the schools - and Queens were GLOs and any secretive org. is banned (deemed potentially unpatriotic and a security risk at the outbreak of the Great War).

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by RACooper
...and Queens were GLOs and any secretive org. is banned (deemed potentially unpatriotic and a security risk at the outbreak of the Great War).

hijack

I love how secret societies are a security risk, meanwhile the prision is just down the street.

/hijack