If you don't have to accept what non-catholics say about you then why are you arguing on here? And who said something about you? The Vatican chose to say something about the US, and US citizens chose to return criticism towards the Vatican.
You've made the Vatican completely pure and innocent. On top of that nobody that isn't Catholic can make a criticism. Any other conditions you want to add to this? On top of that, you've thrown out comments about revisionist history and made it apply to any and all cricisms of the Vatican.
The reason why the Vatican is being discussed is because the Vatican made this remark. If it was the governing body for Anglicans, then Anglicans would be discussed. Also the Vatican is a much more hierarchical organization - most other religions are NOT. Now I can go on and on about the "sins" of the Vatican (I'm sure you'd consider it revisionist history even if it affected people that weren't Catholic) - but I'd just rather the Vatican stay quiet on all matters like this or start becoming more balanced and less political, spreading criticism more fairly including upon itself and the roles it took within even the last 50 years that have gotten it into hot water.
-Rudey
--America is always being bashed through revisionist history...
Quote:
Originally posted by adduncan
Christia (and Tom....)
Last post on the subject.
Everything you posted is the populist "Cliffs Notes" version. (And by the way I was a history minor FWIW.)
You can both egg me on and demand more detail but the fact is the details take up a library full of books and both of you know they don't fit in a sound bite or in a post on GC. That does not mean your quips "win" an argument or are even correct.
As for the Crusades, which is a popular bashing topic, I would recommend Sir Steven Runciman's "A History of the Crusades" (a work in 3 volumes) which is considered the seminal work on the topic. He does not share your conclusion on the Childrens' Crusade. His books are a relatively easy read for a scholarly work. No, I will not reproduce it here for your satisfaction. Check out Amazon.com
The "Heaven's Ring" you refer to would take about 10 pages to explain - and was addressed and resolved in the Council of Trent. You can read it in its entirety (and in English) here: http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent.html
Female priests - never. You're thinking of a gnostic splinter group. Not the same thing, even as early as the writing of the Gospel of John.
Married priests - no kidding that used to be the norm. And the problems caused by that situation is what led to the Western church (Latin rite) banning it. In addition, some entered the priesthood or religious life after their spouses died. So of COURSE they had children!
The Eastern Rites however, do allow married clergy with very specific and rigid stipulations. It's not like Protestant ministers being married. (Some Eastern rites reunited with Rome recently.) Also, when Episopalian or other ministers convert to Catholicism, they are ordained under the Eastern rite if they are married. There's much more than 20.
"Black" schism? Can you clarify? There were several "schisms", some major, some relatively minor, and there's more going on today. If you're thinking of the Church of England split, you can set the blame on Henry Tudor the 8th - he wanted to bend the church to fit HIS opinion. T'ain't how it works. You can't blame the Pope for that one.
More than one Pope? Yes, happened too. Disputes among Church leadership happen, like in any org. You want to talk about two ancient Church leaders in a spat, check out Peter and Paul. So what? The same thing happens in every other damn religious organization on the planet. It just doesn't make CNN.
I've read the background of the Catholic church. It's the reason I converted to it in college--because I wouldn't accept the small-minded, revisionist history that is so popular in the media and on message boards like this. The only thing that "shocks" me is Catholic self-hatred and ignorance. It's just plain sad. We don't have to accept what non-Catholics say about us, folks.
Tom--it was nice knowing you while it lasted. 
Christia--good for you for hanging in there--there's a lot more to read out there than you have found so far and I hope the above references are a good start.
Edited to correct the Hanover University URL
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