Where does this end?

DeltAlum · #1 03-12-2005, 02:00 AM

How many people have to go to the hospital?

How many will die?

How many chapters will close?

How many laws will be broken?

How many Greeks will pay fines?

Go to jail?

How many lawsuits will we face?

When will we wake up?

TSteven · #2 03-12-2005, 02:45 AM

How many people have to go to the hospital? ONE TO MANY.

How many will die? ONE TO MANY.

How many chapters will close? ONE TO MANY.

How many laws will broken? ONE TO MANY.

How many Greeks will pay fines? ONE TO MANY.

Go to jail? ONE TO MANY.

How many lawsuits will we face? ONE TO MANY.

When will we wake up Not BEFORE ONE TO MANY.

When will WE make a change? ...You tell me.

SpaceGhost · #3 03-12-2005, 04:34 AM

you know thats a good question. i think what it is, is that some people get out of hand with everything and forget that they messin someones life. they think its all fun and games and this is the way its gotta go. but, like ol' dude said up there its goning to be one to many people having problems with the greeks.

lenoxxx · #4 03-12-2005, 01:36 PM

Delt,

I feel your pain, however keep in mind teenagers are have been and always will be idiots. Every year some dumb girl gets pregnant in the 10th grade, and every year there is the DUI accident with the Prom at some high school, kids dont care and think they will live forever.

I think the change is the PC society we live in. Penn State U. in the 1970 was insane, kegs on old main, drugs in the dorms openly , fraternities with 40 keg busters. Now the same place is much better behaved, but every fraternity is on the hot seat if some girl has a beer.

What we need to hope for is a societal shift towards a less litigious society, kids wont change to the level that we are expecting them to as a whole, the game and the rules have.

Thanks

Lenoxxx

Tom Earp · #5 03-12-2005, 04:18 PM

It always seems when "Young" people are told no, then the exact happens. I am sure all of us were of the same mind set.

No matter how PC and training is given, there are not enough Older People there to try to keep a reign on thinking.

Didnt We all feel like We could live forever at these ages of New College Students.

To be factual, Greeks have a lower % rate of Hazing and many other charges than other groups.

But, being Greeks of National Organizations, We are always in the lime light. No matter how hard we as National Represenatives or Alumni do, We are not or cannot be there policing all situations.

We can only hope for the best.

hoosier · #6 03-12-2005, 05:00 PM

Too many GLOs act like nothing bad ever happens. My fraternity had 100 or more chapters close, and I never saw a paragraph about it in the magazine. Many of these natl. fraternity leaders act like publishing something bad will cause the whole GLO to go to hell, or maybe they wouldn't get re-elected at the next Convention.

Some GLOs are not like this, though, and they seem to be surviving. For example:

Pi Kappa Phi's webpage has a section on problems, and lists every chapter discipinary action FOR THE PAST FIVE YEARS. It briefly states who, what happened, what the school did, and what the GLO did.

Sigma Chi's current magazine announces a ZERO TOLERANCE policy, and discusses several of the bad events, and then says "and there were also these events, which you probably didn't hear about .... "

I once asked Wilson Heller why he printed so much bad stuff about my fraternity, and he said "because that makes the good stuff I print MORE believeable."

In the NCAA weekly newspaper, almost every issue has 2 to 4 pages discussing in depth a recent recruiting or rules violation, with specific names and actions taken. Sure, it's embarassing for the school, coaches, and athletes involved - but the readers in other coaches offices and athletic depts. may get the message and learn something to avoid.

I think honesty, along with swift action against the hazers and boozers, would be a big step forward.

roqueemae · #7 03-12-2005, 06:08 PM

I know the KA Order Journal lists expelled members in its issues. I have seen it before but they never say why these guys are expelled. You get an idea if they are all from the same chapter though.

aggieAXO · #8 03-12-2005, 06:19 PM

The Lyre use to print the closing of chapters but has not for the last 3-4 years. I think they should, especially if it is due to a violation. It is always kept hush hush, swept under a rug so to speak. Maybe this is the wrong approach?

Tom Earp · #9 03-12-2005, 07:24 PM

Agee Totally and Have posted to My IHQ concerning this very Point.

They are seemingly agreeing with this Idea. We have a list site that is sent from IHQ. It explains the Wherefores and Why ofs.

It may not sound good when We hear of ours or anyothers who lose Chapters, but the basic problem is it they screw up, then there is a problem! They Should Be Listed, Maybe, some will learn!

We can only Hope!

SpaceGhost · #10 03-13-2005, 02:10 AM

wait wait wait. i know what you mean and i understand what you all are sayin but its not all the time teenagers. plus on top of that its not all of us. im one of the many few who still have some kind of sense.

kddani · #11 03-13-2005, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SpaceGhost
wait wait wait. i know what you mean and i understand what you all are sayin but its not all the time teenagers. plus on top of that its not all of us. im one of the many few who still have some kind of sense.

actually many could question that...

roqueemae · #12 03-13-2005, 12:13 PM

many few?

Tom Earp · #13 03-13-2005, 01:25 PM

Needed?

Uncalled for?

PsychTau2 · #14 03-13-2005, 09:28 PM

I'm going to preface this by saying that this could apply to most but not all GLO members (or humans in general). This is an observation, not an absolute.

GLO members have got to STOP MAKING EXCUSES. Period.

Just like the headquarters who publicize their closed chapters and expelled members (thereby admitting that bad stuff happened), members have to acknowledge their mistakes and accept the consequences. We can't keep talking about our "no hazing, no tolerance" policies, but then keep the mistakes quiet. It damages credibility, especially when incidents are all over the media (or perhaps the rumor mill) and GLOs don't acknowledge the existence of them.

Members can't keep hiding behind "There's always some hazing going on. You can't stop it." That statement sounds like the speaker is condoning hazing just a little bit. Members can't keep turning a blind eye to situations that just seem a little bit shady. Confront that behavior. Discuss it with your Greek advisor or someone else. It's not tattling if you do that...it's taking care of each other. It's showing that you don't want a chapter to start sliding down that slippery slope into disaster. Ask someone to intervene and educate those members before it is too late.

From what I know about the two incidents at U. of Oklahoma in the fall, NO ONE on campus was talking about it. I can presume at least two reasons for this. 1. No one wanted to damage the fraternities stories by admitting they knew these traditions were happening (and thereby getting those groups into "more trouble"). or 2. They wanted to be supportive of the affected groups because "they are really good guys and an awesome fraternity." No one talked about the Sigma Chi incident and analyzed it on how it could have been avoided (which would have been a positive risk management discussion). BINGO! It happened again. In about a month's time.

(Disclaimer: I understand there is risk involved in talking about a legal case. However, you don't have to discuss all the details in order to learn something. Obviously there was a death at the Sigma Chi house related to alcohol during/after a chapter event that was tradition based. You don't have to discuss what time and where he was found and all of that. Go with the obvious stuff that you know.)

Now I'm not saying that they should have talked negatively about all of the members, etc. They probably are good guys in a lot of ways. The fact is that they had some flawed thinking and made a huge mistake. What do you think would have happened if SOMEONE from that campus talked about that tradition (drinking a bottle of whatever on Big/Lil night) when it first started...and had honest conversations about the negative consequences of it and how to make that celebration safer. Would last semester have been different? Probably.

We can't control someone else's behavior. But we can control our own, and we can speak up against someone else's behavior and refuse to condone it. I'll bet that if all of the other Greeks at Oklahoma continuously denounced that Big/Lil tradition, continuously told school officials that it was happening, and refused to take part in it or celebrate it in any way (or laugh about the drunk stories the next day), the President of the university might not have dried out all of the houses. The focus might have stayed on the houses that made the mistakes. Now we'll never know.

One pop culture definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect the same result.

I'm with DeltAlum...I'm waiting on members to do something different.

PsychTau

33girl · #15 03-14-2005, 12:46 AM

We need to define what hazing is, rather than saying "anything that harms someone physically or mentally."

Can you imagine if a police officer tried to arrest someone and wrote "harmed someone physically" on the warrant without being more specific. Our ambiguity leaves us open to people crying hazing for basically nothing - or chapters being yanked by HQ for "hazing" when actually hazing wasn't even involved and the real reason is something totally different. You get so sick of hearing this that when it IS a case of real hazing, you figure it's the same old same old.

I agree with Lennoxx, as long as people can say anything done to them was hazing, and the GLOs believe the accuser instead of their own brothers or sisters, real hazing will continue to exist.