Yet Another Abortion Thread

[AlphaGamDiva]

since pro-lifers weren't invited to the party, here's a thread for us (but don't worry, pro-choicers, you are all welcome here....just keep it civil, please) we all know i am pro-life, but with heavy connections to pro-choicers and those who have had abortions. all my friends are liberals. don't understand why.

i've said this in other abortion threads, but i guess i can say it again here. keep in mind this is my opinion, ok? ok...this may seem harsh:

i think that while ppl have their reasons for having an abortion, it does boil down to what is best for them, not really the child. "oh, i can't handle the pregnancy" or "oh i can't handle the thought of giving my baby up for adoption" or all the "what if's".....followed by "it was best for the child" and every so often a small acknowledgement that it was "best for me, too." it's just a selfish thing. and i think terminating a pregnancy b/c something may be "wrong" with the baby is horrifying. so....special needs children are unnecessary? they shouldn't be given the same rights as other children? wow....hi, hitler. nice ta know ya. [**not calling ANYONE hitler....merely making reference that he wasn't in favor of special needs, and i doubt there are many who want the same values as him**] that whole thought process gives way to thinking that if a baby is healthy, someone would think more about giving birth to them than if they were "unhealthy".....do you at least see how that could be interpreted, and how SCARY that is? so what, we're gonna eventually be able to figure out ppl's IQ in the womb, and if it's not high enough, and if i don't know for sure how i feel about having this baby, that would be the deciding factor???? "well, he's gonna be stupid and hard to manage......eh, too hard for me and he might have a hard life, so looks like abortion time" ya know what? everyone goes through hard times in life, whether you are healthy or not. your nose could be too big, you could be too fat/skinny, flat chested, scrawny, and KIDS ARE CRUEL. that makes life hard. or, you or a loved one becomes ill with a fatal disease, or someone is hurt in a car accident, ISHT HAPPENS. for ppl who are all about ppl having the right to choose, why not give ppl the ultimate right to choose how to live their life by allowing them to LIVE in the first place?
it's not as if i don't sympathize or feel compassion for these women going through these things.....i just find it funny when democrats/liberals refer to themselves as "bleeding hearts" and then they can't even have a heart for a defensless child. then there's ppl getting in the way of JUSTICE b/c a pregnant woman was killed, and the baby dies as well....but they only want the murderer sentenced for ONE life not TWO, even though TWO were lost. why? b/c it might over-turn roe vs. wade. appalling.

it's at this point, i would like to add the phrase "in my honest opinion". thank you.

i realize not everyone sees things as i do......that abortion is selfish. i realize that some ppl see it as a brave thing for a woman to spare her child this harsh world and the harsh reality that it may have to face. but, if we look at every un-wanted or un-planned pregnancy that way, then we should have never known malcolm x, nancy reagan, nat king cole, faith hill, nelson mandela, and sorry for bringing up the name, but Jesus. (i refer to a list of adopted celebs on adoption.com...it's an interesting site). but i do agree that not every woman is up for being a mother raising a child. however, that does not mean that a woman cannot give birth.

that's all of my rant for now....until i am flamed, i guess. comment away.

[AXJules]

Ok, very interesting points and a pretty logical argument. ( I consider myself pro-choice.)

I have two questions for you:
1) I realize that the majority of abortions aren't from violent rapes, but let's say a woman gets an intruder in her house, and he rapes her. That kid is spawned out of an act of hatred, first of all, which sucks for the kid. He's going to grow up either a) raised without his biological father or b) adopted, but either way with NO KNOWLEDGE of his paternal health history. How is that ok? A lot of times there are medical things you need to know about in your background that that kid has no way of knowing.

2) You said abortions happen for selfish reasons, which I would probably agree with. What if a woman is told that she will almost certainly die if she carries the baby...you still think that's ok? I mean, ok yeah that is selfish, but if she dies during the pregnancy than the child probably will too. Or if she or the baby is guaranteed to die during delivery....I guess I just don't see how you could justify that as not a reason for an abortion.

(Hope you see this post as just curious questions, no flames )

[Pike1483]

Good, logical points from both of you. I'm pro-life, and here are some of my humble opinions. First of all, I'd like to say, just because I'm pro-life does not mean I'm judging anyone about their views on abortion, or even if they've had abortions themselves. I would never presume to be better than anyone, and I certainly am in no position to judge anyone else for their actions. So here are my opinions on the matter:

Also, I have posted a very similiar thread like this in other forums on abortion, so if you've read it before, don't be mad.

I'm pro-life and feel that abortion should be outlawed except for the cases of rape, incest, and valid health problems. Fortunately, I'm a man, so I don't ever have to be in this situation personally, but I do plan to marry and have a family, so (God-forbid) something like this ever happened, who knows what I would do. Hopefully I would trust in God and be strong.

First, AXJules, I know a lady who was happily married and was raped by an intruder. This woman conceived a child, and decided to keep it, even under the awful circumstances. Also, this woman was happily married and was raped by someone of a different race than she, so it would be obvious to everyone that this was not her husband's child, and everyone that knew about the rape would know that this child was a result of it. Still, in the face of extreme hardship, this woman trusted in God, and knew that her baby was a human being, had been conceived for a purpose, and that it was not her baby's fault that she had been raped. She had the child, and the girl grew up to be smart, loving, talented, and beautiful. I'm sure if you asked this girl "Would you rather be alive, even though you don't know your biological father, and even though you know the horrible situation, or would you have rather your mother aborted you?" This girl knows that she is blessed and is thankful her mother kept her and spared her life, even in the hardest of situations.
I also know many children who have been adopted, and know no knowledge of their parental history. They too, are happy to be alive, inspite of the hardship of not knowing their biological parents.

On the health issue, as I've already stated, I'm not for outlawing abortions in valid health situations. I do however, would like to give more real-life examples. One of them, is my mother and myself and brothers. I'm a quadruplet. I was born in 1983. This was a monumental health risk to my mother, and statistically and medically proposed monumental risks to myself and my 3 brothers. Mom trusted in God, and did not have any abortions, even though many health-care proffesionals advised her to. We all turned out fine, and I'm thankful everyday that they chose to keep us alive. God really took care of us.

Originally posted by AXJules
Ok, very interesting points and a pretty logical argument. ( I consider myself pro-choice.)

I have two questions for you:
1) I realize that the majority of abortions aren't from violent rapes, but let's say a woman gets an intruder in her house, and he rapes her. That kid is spawned out of an act of hatred, first of all, which sucks for the kid. He's going to grow up either a) raised without his biological father or b) adopted, but either way with NO KNOWLEDGE of his paternal health history. How is that ok? A lot of times there are medical things you need to know about in your background that that kid has no way of knowing.

2) You said abortions happen for selfish reasons, which I would probably agree with. What if a woman is told that she will almost certainly die if she carries the baby...you still think that's ok? I mean, ok yeah that is selfish, but if she dies during the pregnancy than the child probably will too. Or if she or the baby is guaranteed to die during delivery....I guess I just don't see how you could justify that as not a reason for an abortion.

(Hope you see this post as just curious questions, no flames )

[Pike1483]

Abortion is advocated only by persons who have themselves been born." ---President Ronald Reagan

Found this quote on the internet--- It's great!

[valkyrie]

AGDiva, I have a question --

Accepting as true your assertion that abortion is a selfish act by the woman who has one -- do you feel that is a basis for creating laws against having an abortion? Are you saying that because abortion is selfish it should not be legal -- or are you just saying that abortion is selfish and that has nothing to do with whether it should be legal or not?

[AlphaGamDiva]

Originally posted by AXJules
Ok, very interesting points and a pretty logical argument. ( I consider myself pro-choice.)

I have two questions for you:
1) I realize that the majority of abortions aren't from violent rapes, but let's say a woman gets an intruder in her house, and he rapes her. That kid is spawned out of an act of hatred, first of all, which sucks for the kid. He's going to grow up either a) raised without his biological father or b) adopted, but either way with NO KNOWLEDGE of his paternal health history. How is that ok? A lot of times there are medical things you need to know about in your background that that kid has no way of knowing.

2) You said abortions happen for selfish reasons, which I would probably agree with. What if a woman is told that she will almost certainly die if she carries the baby...you still think that's ok? I mean, ok yeah that is selfish, but if she dies during the pregnancy than the child probably will too. Or if she or the baby is guaranteed to die during delivery....I guess I just don't see how you could justify that as not a reason for an abortion.

(Hope you see this post as just curious questions, no flames )

these are horrible situations that i wish never existed. but they do, i know. i feel that when a child is conceived, he's supposed to be.....so it's a hard thing to think that, ok, this situation is ok to have one.....but 1/2 of me is like, "yes, absolutely"....and then the other 1/2 is like, "whoa, no"....so i'm on the fence. i definitely see both sides very clearly, so it makes it hard to make a definite decision. and as far as the mother's life being in danger, it's the same way, i guess. b/c i know of a lot of circumstances where the mother was told that she would absolutely not survive labor, but she went ahead and then she did survive (take pike1483's story.....wow)....it's mind boggling. so really.......i supposed those are the only two situations where the decision should be left up to the mother.........if she has enough faith or strength to endure it, she will....if not, she won't. but just b/c she doesn't want it, isn't "ready", the baby could be less than perfect, hell no. make some sense?? hope so!

[AlphaGamDiva]

Originally posted by valkyrie
AGDiva, I have a question --

Accepting as true your assertion that abortion is a selfish act by the woman who has one -- do you feel that is a basis for creating laws against having an abortion? Are you saying that because abortion is selfish it should not be legal -- or are you just saying that abortion is selfish and that has nothing to do with whether it should be legal or not?

just saw this one valkyrie......and that's.....a good question......geez.

i don't think that b/c it is selfish it should be made illegal. i think that just merely emphasizes how morally wrong it is. to do something or not do something simply b/c of inconveince to yourself is immature, for one thing, and just not responsible for another. i think it should be illegal b/c it takes the life away from a human being, and that to me is really wrong.

i'm trying to not make this a novel, so i'll stop there.....but did that answer your question??

[Lady Pi Phi]

I am pro-choice.

AlphaGamDiva said that abortions are selfish. I agree with that.
But choosing to have a child is selfish also.
Why do people have children. Because they want them. That's pretty damn selfish right there
I just don't think calling an abortion a selfish act is a good argument.

[AlphaGamDiva]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
I am pro-choice.

AlphaGamDiva said that abortions are selfish. I agree with that.
But choosing to have a child is selfish also.
Why do people have children. Because they want them. That's pretty damn selfish right there
I just don't think calling an abortion a selfish act is a good argument.

wow....lol.....b/c when i see a mother of 5 in the grocery store, the first thing i think is, "DAYUM, that b*tch is selfish to be giving up her time and her energy to be taking care of those kids!"

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
I am pro-choice.

AlphaGamDiva said that abortions are selfish. I agree with that.
But choosing to have a child is selfish also.
Why do people have children. Because they want them. That's pretty damn selfish right there
I just don't think calling an abortion a selfish act is a good argument.

I agree that having a child is selfish -- how is it not? Yes, you're giving up time and energy taking care of someone else, but I think that reproduction is an inherently selfish act -- people have kids because they want them -- how is that any less selfish than not having a kid because one doesn't want them?

I think that having many biological children is especially selfish -- you're creating a huge drain of resources.

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
wow....lol.....b/c when i see a mother of 5 in the grocery store, the first thing i think is, "DAYUM, that b*tch is selfish to be giving up her time and her energy to be taking care of those kids!"

Think about it for 5 minutes.

Why does she have 5 kids? Because she wanted them. Not because someone forced her to. I commend women for the having the energy and patience to care for many children, but if she didn't want to give up HER time to take care of nshe could have chosesn not to have children, but she didn't now did she? So yes, having children is selfish act because it something that the mother/parent wants for them, not something they want for the children.

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by valkyrie
I agree that having a child is selfish -- how is it not? Yes, you're giving up time and energy taking care of someone else, but I think that reproduction is an inherently selfish act -- people have kids because they want them -- how is that any more selfish than not having a kid because one doesn't want them?

Exactly!

I'll agree that the decision to do either is selfish. I have my own selfish reasons for wanting children, just like you have your own for not. However...procreation is part of the definition of life itself. I don't think birds are selfish for having little baby birds or flowers are selfish for spreading their pollen

Edited to note that the word "selfish" looks very strange when you type it several times in a row, and that I misread what Valkyrie was saying so I'm removing her quote from my post!

[AlphaGamDiva]

no, i read that and thought about it before i responded.......we just disagree as to what makes someone truly "selfish," and the difference btwn that and just doing something you want to do. being selfish means you only think about yourself...thinking way more of what you want than someone else. being a mother is the complete opposite of that. yeah, you wanted the child, but i don't think that makes you selfish. it means you're willing to love and care for another human being......which is NOT selfish.

just b/c i want some ice cream doesn't make me selfish, does it?


ETA: co-sign that writing "selfish" so many times is like a really bad tongue-twister

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by Ginger
I'll agree that the decision to do either is selfish. I have my own selfish reasons for wanting children, just like you have your own for not. However...procreation is part of the definition of life itself. I don't think birds are selfish for having little baby birds or flowers are selfish for spreading their pollen

Edited to note that the word "selfish" looks very strange when you type it several times in a row, and that I misread what Valkyrie was saying so I'm removing her quote from my post!

Life: The quality that distinguishes a vital and functioning being from a dead body