The Patriot Act II

[lifesaver]

Originally posted by Cream
100,000 NYC liberals protest a war that is perceived as unjust. Many Americans and people around the world are protesting this war.

What does that have to do with being grateful or ungrateful?
Ungrateful for what?

What does OUR kids going off to war to eliminate saddam mean? There are plenty of New Yorkers in the military.

Lifesaver, why are you being so hostile regarding New Yorkers? I really don't get it. September 11th was an attack on the United States of American, not just New York City. Remember the Pentagon and Pennsylvania? It was attempt to undermind the American way of life, the American ecomony, and the American government.

I get what you are saying. I am not purposfully trying to be hostile to new yorkers. I like NY. I have visited several times now. I'll be back up there this summer. My best friend in the world lives there (Staten Island) But fundamentally, me and quite a few other people I know didnt take the 9/11 attacks as an attack on the US and a way of life. New Yorkers always carry themselves with the sense of bravado that NYC is the center of the world and took such ownership of the 9/11 events that it seemed to happen to them, not us. (You have to admit that the then and post 9/11 coverage was 90%NYC and 10% DC and Pennsylvania.) Me and a lot of other people I know are Texans first. Yeah, were us citizens too, but the 9/11 attacks didnt happen here. I didnt know anyone who died in them. So while I know the terrorists' attemps were to make it a strike on the US way of life, We just didint take it a that. My life went on pretty much the same, except for the extra 35 minutes for security when I fly. Nothing else changed for me.

People can protest whatever thay want in my book. Its what our forefathers died to protect. What I am saying is the ungrateful comment comes from the above paragraph. THe 9/11 attacks happened to you. Not me. All of September of 2001 and post was "How could this happen? Who's responsible? We gotta go get them." And ya know, the country was with ya'll on that. And now that we are "taking care of it" its protrayed on TV that ya'll think going after the peeps who had a hand in this one way or another is unjust. (Granted the links between IRAQ and 9/11 seem now to be tenous AT BEST, I have faith that the links exist and we'll be shown them, in due time. If not, I'll eat this entire post.) After seeing the protest on TV I was like, so they readily accepted the love, support and assistance of the entire country then, but now, when push comes to shove, were wrong for trying to keep it from happening (to you or someone else) again? WTF? That I dont get. Its like my friend Julie. She dated Mike all through college, had the perrenial fights, shed tell us how much she hated him, and he was an SOB. THree weeks later, she was back with him. This happend for 4 years till they got married in November. And they both lost a lot of credibility with the rest of us.

Peeps be upset that 9/11 happend, but dont seem to wanna do anything about it if it makes us a bit squeamish or uncomfortable. That I dont get. Were doing this also to teach the fundamentalists that OK, yeah, you can sneak in and set of a bomb in the us, but we wont take it and be scared. Much liek how bush I admitted last nigh tthat he "underestimated" Saddams reaction to the gulf war aftermath (they all thought hed be overthrown) Al-Queda underestimated the US. Ok, be a terrorist, but be prepared to have the govmt that supported you be overthorwn, and you finances cut off.

I am not a war monger. I hate it. I would rather have all our troops back safe and sound and not having to do this. But do I want another 9/11 or worse, HELL NO. If we gotta start with Iraq and do the same to 15 other countries too? Lets roll. I'm game.

[Cloud9]

hallo chopper. you don't like what I have to say? Oh well, not like that will stop me, try using the dreaded rolling eye smiley face, maybe that will intimidate me, hahaha.

To answer your question, I don't support either party, that's a whole separate discussion! Basically I don't like the whole bipartisan thing, I think it's time to get some new contending parties in there to foster more choice and competition among candidates. I realize it's not likely this will happen anytime soon, but that doesn't mean I have to bite my tongue and go with the herd like the rest of the sheep.

One question...I'm wondering how little you all would care about this bill if you were of middle eastern descent, or even just could resemble one(ie indian, spanish, etc)??? I'm SURE it would be a whole different response. And what's this about "those who have nothing to hide shouldn't worry(lifesaver I think?" So basically we should all be quilty till proven innocent, and we can be absolved once we've gone through scrutiny, surveillance, and possibly even jail? Really, what would it take for you to become concerned? Things like this always happen subtley, it's not the the gov. is going to come out with a "paranoid citizen spy act." This should at least be worthy of checking out rather than spouting more of the blind patriotism that's been running rampant lately.

[Cloud9]

I'll excuse some of your derogatory NYC comments since you seem an impassioned guy, and I can relate to saying dumb things when the spirit takes me. Anyways...

It is very significant that so many New Yorkers are protesting the war and the some of the actions of the gov post 9/11. I think that those who witnessed the attacks have a greater connection to what happened, and understand the significance. The TRUE significance. In the end, freedom is a precious gift, and sometimes the price is death. But it is worth the loss of life if it results in the preservation of that freedom. I hear it time and time again, and we are seeing it now - people are dying, and killing, and they say it is for freedom. How can we be such hypocrites and just throw it all away with no resistence in our own home? Some of you talk alot of sh*t but when it comes down to it, the real cowards are the ones who just want to send the soldiers "over there" to die, and then will give up the special entitlements of US citizenship without a wimper here at home, because somehow "we will be safer." Why? Well, because they tell us so. Who's they? Oh, the ones who are taking those rights away. Man, some of you should really listen to yourselves yo.

And of course I can't regulate this, but if you're looking to get me to respond to you, I would suggest calming yourselves and avoiding the childish "oh you dirty liberal" remarks. Unless of course you'd rather be disregarded, which is fine too.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

Originally posted by lifesaver
I get what you are saying. I am not purposfully trying to be hostile to new yorkers. I like NY. I have visited several times now. I'll be back up there this summer. My best friend in the world lives there (Staten Island) But fundamentally, me and quite a few other people I know didnt take the 9/11 attacks as an attack on the US and a way of life. New Yorkers always carry themselves with the sense of bravado that NYC is the center of the world and took such ownership of the 9/11 events that it seemed to happen to them, not us. (You have to admit that the then and post 9/11 coverage was 90%NYC and 10% DC and Pennsylvania.) Me and a lot of other people I know are Texans first. Yeah, were us citizens too, but the 9/11 attacks didnt happen here. I didnt know anyone who died in them. So while I know the terrorists' attemps were to make it a strike on the US way of life, We just didint take it a that. My life went on pretty much the same, except for the extra 35 minutes for security when I fly. Nothing else changed for me.

People can protest whatever thay want in my book. Its what our forefathers died to protect. What I am saying is the ungrateful comment comes from the above paragraph. THe 9/11 attacks happened to you. Not me. All of September of 2001 and post was "How could this happen? Who's responsible? We gotta go get them." And ya know, the country was with ya'll on that. And now that we are "taking care of it" its protrayed on TV that ya'll think going after the peeps who had a hand in this one way or another is unjust. (Granted the links between IRAQ and 9/11 seem now to be tenous AT BEST, I have faith that the links exist and we'll be shown them, in due time. If not, I'll eat this entire post.) After seeing the protest on TV I was like, so they readily accepted the love, support and assistance of the entire country then, but now, when push comes to shove, were wrong for trying to keep it from happening (to you or someone else) again? WTF? That I dont get. Its like my friend Julie. She dated Mike all through college, had the perrenial fights, shed tell us how much she hated him, and he was an SOB. THree weeks later, she was back with him. This happend for 4 years till they got married in November. And they both lost a lot of credibility with the rest of us.

Peeps be upset that 9/11 happend, but dont seem to wanna do anything about it if it makes us a bit squeamish or uncomfortable. That I dont get. Were doing this also to teach the fundamentalists that OK, yeah, you can sneak in and set of a bomb in the us, but we wont take it and be scared. Much liek how bush I admitted last nigh tthat he "underestimated" Saddams reaction to the gulf war aftermath (they all thought hed be overthrown) Al-Queda underestimated the US. Ok, be a terrorist, but be prepared to have the govmt that supported you be overthorwn, and you finances cut off.

I am not a war monger. I hate it. I would rather have all our troops back safe and sound and not having to do this. But do I want another 9/11 or worse, HELL NO. If we gotta start with Iraq and do the same to 15 other countries too? Lets roll. I'm game.

Believe me, I would have prefered September 11th had never happened. As I have posted previously, people that I know were murdered. No one could have imagined that Sept. 11th would have happened until it did. Pearl Harbor was an attack on the US. I view Sept. 11th the same way.

The media coverage was primarily focused on NY because most of the deaths and destruction took place here. There was live videotape of the towers coming down and people dying. As far as I know, there is no such videotape of a plane crashing in PA or the Pentagon being attacked. Also NYC is the home of most of the national news stations so they were right there to report it.

You and your friends might not view Sept. 11th as an attack on the US and a way of life, but it was. I don't think that New Yorkers always carry themselves with bravado. I think that that is an incorrect stereotype. I think that the terrorists viewed NYC as the center of the world or at least the US economy. That is why they targeted the Twin Towers.

I am not sure what taking such ownership of the 9/11 events means. The majority of the damage of the terrorist attacks happened in New York and affected New York most directly, but it happened to the USA.

You are lucky that your life went on pretty much the same way as it had pre 9/11. Mine didn't. Everyone I know was affected. We lost friends and neighbors as well as a sense of security. 18 months later, we still feel the aftermath of Sept. 11th. Be grateful that terrorist attacks didn't happen near you. Life will never be the same.

As for being ungrateful, I still don't understand. As for the protest, think of it this way, news reports say 100,000 New Yorkers protested. That sounds like a lot, but it is out of nearly 8,000,000 people so it is a very small fraction of the population. Additionally, many people showed up for the 'support our troops' rally.

[Kevin]

The unfortunate thing about protesters is that they get media attention. Here in Oklahoma some family sat on a bridge overlooking I-35 waving American flags, displaying patriotism. The stuff made the news, the front page, etc.. 3 people!

In New York as Cream said, 100,000 people (or 1/800) out of NYC showed up to protest. How about the other 799/800 people? They had better things to do than proclaim the evils of GW.

I've personally been witness to terrorism. Not on the same scale.. But I was in a high school classroom just a few miles away from the Alfred E Murrah building when it was blown up in Oklahoma City. I've seen the stuff first hand and known people that have died in a terrorist attack.

We have to face the music. Terrorism could be a LOT worse than a manure bomb or a couple of planes flying into a building. With only around 3000 people dead on US soil we are lucky. Yes, we need extra measures to ensure that serious things like chem/bio/nukes are not deployed on the US population. Yes we will have to give up some of our privacy.

You have to ask yourself... would you rather no one look at your email or would you rather be dead?

Not a tough choice for me..

[AlphaGamDiva]

cloud9....first of all, i'm just going to say that i think you are very well read in this area and you know what the act says and all that....i think also, though, maybe you are interpreting from that our government is out to get the american people just because. that's not, in my opinion, the case. the american government seeks out those who intend for ill-will to happen upon us. those who wish to terrorize us and blow us up and make us look like flaming idiots (whoa, germany). this act is for the american people's protection, it is not about a hitler reincarnat....it's about protecting this country, it's citizens, me, YOU. no, i don't think anyone really wants for everything they do to be monitored.....but if it's happening to everyone here, then it's not like someone is being singled out....like, middle easterners who live here would not be the only ones subjected to this treatment. it's all of us. i'm ok with that b/c some ppl give up their lives for our freedoms and rights to be protected, my privacy is not that severe of a thing to give up for a while. i mean, if they do listen in to my phone calls or read my emails, at least they won't be bored. it's not that we don't care, it's just that we are willing to give a bit of ourselves for the overall protection (i seem to like that word...pro-tec-tion....let's all say it together) of our fellow citizens. i don't have anything to hide, so why sweat it? it's not like they're gonna see someone is a registered democrat/republican and carry them away in an armored car.

just my thought....take it for what it's worth.
monica

[James]

This is not completely a fair response in a logical debate.

If THE choice was certain or NEAR certain death at the hands of a terrorist versus the loss of my civil liberties that would be one thing. Bye Bye Bill of Rights.

But the question is: Do we want to give up our rights, the very fabric that defines us, for a shapeless fear?

If that is ok with you that is good, because there will always be enough death and killings to say "I Told You So".

And there will always be enough of them to justify more restrictive laws.

Originally posted by ktsnake
I've personally been witness to terrorism. Not on the same scale.. But I was in a high school classroom just a few miles away from the Alfred E Murrah building when it was blown up in Oklahoma City. I've seen the stuff first hand and known people that have died in a terrorist attack.

We have to face the music. Terrorism could be a LOT worse than a manure bomb or a couple of planes flying into a building. With only around 3000 people dead on US soil we are lucky. Yes, we need extra measures to ensure that serious things like chem/bio/nukes are not deployed on the US population. Yes we will have to give up some of our privacy.

You have to ask yourself... would you rather no one look at your email or would you rather be dead?

Not a tough choice for me..

[Kevin]

Originally posted by James
This is not completely a fair response in a logical debate.

If THE choice was certain or NEAR certain death at the hands of a terrorist versus the loss of my civil liberties that would be one thing. Bye Bye Bill of Rights.

But the question is: Do we want to give up our rights, the very fabric that defines us, for a shapeless fear?

If that is ok with you that is good, because there will always be enough death and killings to say "I Told You So".

And there will always be enough of them to justify more restrictive laws.

As far as rights... what have we lost? A certain degree of our right to privacy as far as the government is concerned but besides that not much else has changed!

I do see a fair amount of this law being taken down in the supreme court.

Personally though I don't know or know of any instances where people have felt restricted because of these changes.