Sexism in Greekdom

[miss priss]

I was watching a recent episode of Real Sports yesterday about the practice of sexism at the Augusta National Golf Club. The NCWO chairwoman Martha Burke called for the appointment of a woman to the all-male membership. This led me to the following thought(s):
1. Can a person of the opposite sex have a legal right to become a member of your sorority/fraternity?
2. If not, does that mean that sexism is practiced by (your) sorority/fraternity?
3. (If so,) do you agree with the practice? Why or why not?

[ClassyLady]

I never really understood how far sexism and sex discrimination goes, so I would really love to hear the answer to those questions. I always thought that if you were a private organization, country club, fraternity, etc., that you had the legal right to set up and maintain your own criteria for membership, including sex. I thought that this was why there are many private schools that are not co-ed. I am interested in knowing if there is a legal way for the opposite sex to gain admittance into these clubs.

[Jody]

Last years Supreme Court ruling dictated that a groups right to free assembly trumps discrimination (The Boys Scouts case). That ruling gives individuals the ability to chose whom that wish to peacefully assemble.

[AKA_Monet]

Since the GLO's are considered as private organizations, they have the right to only include members of a certain sex. I think that discrimination on the basis of sex would be determined if an organization were to allocated taxpayer monies. Since private organizations are not given tax dollars, then they could do whatever they want. Moreover, I think that the constitution guarentees our right to freedom of association and assembly. So if a private group only wants one kind of person, then hey...

But, it is illegal for a "private" university to discriminate if it is procuring funds from the government. This is what is getting some of these military schools into trouble.

I am not a lawyer. But I think that discrimination on the basis of sex and race is getting much more difficult to prove. On the basis of "he said" and "she said" is no longer valid.

[NUPE4LIFE]

I'm so sick of this Master's mess. They have the right to admit whoever they want when they want to. And I know it was not too long ago that they didn't admit Blacks either. But hey, it's still a private club and they can accept whoever they want as members. I don't care if they have a nationally televised event there each year. Next you gonna have men trying to legally join AKA. This sickens me. Isn't discrimination like this one of the reasons the D9 founders started our orgs.? We knew at the time that we'd never have a place in their Greek society so we started our own with an emphasis on uplift of our community. So why don't all these women complaining about Augusta National, pool their resources together and start their own exclusive golf club. I mean I feel that it's due time for a women to be admitted as a member of their golf club, but I'm not for forcing them to admit a woman either.

[Steeltrap]

I'm also not understanding this. A golf club isn't exactly an essential institution, unlike education or employment. Yes, it may have symbolic meaning, but maybe all that energy should be directed at ensuring equal opportunity in the economic and educational areas.

Just a few thoughts.

[Kimmie1913]

Originally posted by Steeltrap
I'm also not understanding this. A golf club isn't exactly an essential institution, unlike education or employment. Yes, it may have symbolic meaning, but maybe all that energy should be directed at ensuring equal opportunity in the economic and educational areas.

Just a few thoughts.

While I agree that there are far more important things to focus this kind of energy on, it is true that depending on your profession, many many deals are made on the golf course. This is one of the subtle ways that women are cut out of certain business deals. It may not be a make or break kind of thing but it does have professional life implications for some. (Another popular place for deals to be made that is not always talked about are strip clubs , seriously.)

Shoot, when I was in law school, all of the young Black guys got together and started learning how to play golf. Why? Not cuz they loved the sport, but because they know that around here, that is where the male lawyers do a great deal of networking. Now, even though I may be allowed at the club, doesn't mean I would be nvited to join the fellas for 9 holes of golf and that is why I think there are definitely more important things to focus on at this point. Better to work on the mindset that would exclude me than the club. (Not that i think this is the pro women golfers concern in the first place)

[miss priss]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NUPE4LIFE
Next you gonna have men trying to legally join AKA. This sickens me. Isn't discrimination like this one of the reasons the D9 founders started our orgs.? [/QUOTE

Women could (technically) petition for membership in KAPsi... So either way wouldn't this be sexism? How would you feel if this were to become an issue? So, keeping that in mind, check out what Kimmie says that's insightful......


Kimmie1913 quote:
While I agree that there are far more important things to focus this kind of energy on, it is true that depending on your profession, many many deals are made on the golf course. This is one of the subtle ways that women are cut out of certain business deals. It may not be a make or break kind of thing but it does have professional life implications for some. (Another popular place for deals to be made that is not always talked about are strip clubs , seriously.)

Those same deals are made with women's orgs as well...So would you consider this to be somewhat of one hand washing the other?
Where's Blackwatch when you need him?
Oh, 1inamillion pm me....

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by Divine Nine



Whether a private club has the right to discriminate is not as important as whether or not it is morally correct. The law determined that a private business had the right to discriminate against its customers, hence the segregated Woolworth lunch counters, however the Supreme Court and the rest of the country determined that it was morally wrong. Which leads me to our BGLO organizations.

Private clubs can discriminate as for membership AS LONG as they don't have people who do the tasks of full members, however are not given full rights. Where does that come in for our organizations? Sweethearts and sweetheart organizations will have a pretty good case if one ever decides to petition for membership. According to Dr. Walter Kimbrough, a Georgia judge stated that he is waiting for a case from a fraternity sweetheart because they tend to do a lot of the activities of the fraternity without the benefits. So my advice, disband your sweethearts as soon as you can, or you just may have fraternity members who can give birth.

Lawrence Ross

There is nothing immoral in having a private club or organization as you state. It would only be immoral if you had the only means to some life sustaining or life affirming entity. There is nothing immoral about like-minded people of enjoying each others company. If women could not golf elsewhere or had access to meeting or speaking with these movers and shakers in some other legal capacity, then it would be illegal. I am absolutely certain that these Masters members have memberships at other multi-sex clubs (swim, tennis, etc) and I am sure that they sit on boards with women. So to say that women would not have access to powerful men if they are all ensconced at this one club is liberal double-talk. Being denied a meal at a PUBLIC restaurant because of your skin color is far different than not playing golf or hobnobbing on a private golf course

Secondly, despite the all-knowing Dr. Kimbrough and his friend the judge, it would be an execise in judicial activism to demand that women who have engaged in banned and illegal activity be rewarded with membership as a result of their illegal activites. Parenthetically, if a Sweetheart is a member of an Auxillary, aren't they by definition, members of an org designed to aid the main body of the parent org in its activities, without being a full member. The WACS and the WAVES were not full members of the Navy. More legal bullshit to continue to get us to cave in at the mere threat of litigation. Pure and simple legal blackmail. Not that this couldn't happen, because judges overstep their boundaries everyday by making law instead of interpreting it.

I applaud the leaders of Augusta National for not being dictated to by outsiders or public opinion. Its a private club for a reason. They don't exist to serve the public, they exist for themselves and that is all that they have to please.

[thesweetestone]

Originally posted by Steeltrap
I'm also not understanding this. A golf club isn't exactly an essential institution, unlike education or employment. Yes, it may have symbolic meaning, but maybe all that energy should be directed at ensuring equal opportunity in the economic and educational areas.

Just a few thoughts.

My thoughts exactly! 90% of black people have no want to play this course. Why should this issue take time and energy form some of the main issues that actully pertain to black people.

[GroovePhi62]

Not to mention the BGLO's name or anything but I remember in the late 80's two or three females becoming members of a fraternity because they basically got "pledged" as sweethearts. The young ladies took the fraternity to court and the fraternity had to admit them because apparently they had learned everything a member of the fraternity had to learn. They also took the same physical and mental "hazing" and this was one of the cases that led to most BGLO's banning sweethearts and ultimately "Uptop" pledging. I think they had their pictures in jet with their jackets on and everything.

As far as women not getting admitted to Augusta like I said before "Hold your Guns Augusta." Women collectively have unlimited power and unfortunately are not utiluizing it to their full potential. I went to an HBCU where the student body was made up of 70% women and 30% men yet all of the positions of power for the student body was primarilly comprised of men. From SGA President on down women just did not support one another. Now we have the WNBA damn-near folding as is womens soccer and lastly womens groups going against Hilary Clinton if she runs for office. If women stopped looking for Men to open the doors and make and build your own the world might just be a better place.

Until Womens Workout World or Spellman or Bennet colleges, and the term across the country of Thursday being "ladies night" at every club that I know of, is no longer enforced then exclusionary practices will continue to occur.

[DoggyStyle82]

DIVINE NINE

There are so many nuances to this argument that it is hard to break it down in such a forum because rebuttal is a serious matter.

There were definitely times when there was and maybe a need for judicial activism. But with an enlightened populace and amoral lawyers willing to challenge anything, judges no longer need to go above and beyond to right societal wrongs on their own.

Of course the Klan is morally wrong!! They preach hate and principles directly against traditional moral authority. Separation of men and women in athletic endeavors or in bonding/fraternal societies, is not immoral. Men and women have different "needs" and bonding mechanisms that lead themselves to separation for certain endeavors.

Yes, Augusta National should have women members, but they should do so on their timetable and with women that they deem fit by their rules. The Masters is not a public event. Not anyone can go. If so, you are a guest and subject to their rules. Yes restaurants are privately owned, but they are a public accomodation, subject to civil laws. Unless it is a private club like VFW or KOC, a restaurant must provide accomodations for the "general" public regardless of race, creed ,sexual orientation, color, or handicap status. A country club is supported by the membership dues of its "members" and therefore does not have to answer to the public for its policies. The part of the public that finds Augusta National offensive does not need to support its golf tournament or its sponsors.

[ChaosDST]

If it says "sorority" or "fraternity" and it's NOT co-ed...you can't join unless you're a woman (for sorority) and a man (for fraternity).

This is a good topic b/c it shows that people need to stop trying to make a legal case out of something that's not a legal case. Find a co-ed organization, or join the GLO for your appropriate gender, and get over it.

For the sake of "political correctness," everyone wants to be included in everything...and no one wants to offend through exclusivity. Grow up and deal with the fact that you can't DO and HAVE everything.

[NUPE4LIFE]

Couldn't have said it better ChaosDST!

[GroovePhi62]

"Not to mention the BGLO's name or anything but I remember in the late 80's two or three females becoming members of a fraternity because they basically got "pledged" as sweethearts. The young ladies took the fraternity to court and the fraternity had to admit them because apparently they had learned everything a member of the fraternity had to learn. They also took the same physical and mental "hazing" and this was one of the cases that led to most BGLO's banning sweethearts and ultimately "Uptop" pledging. I think they had their pictures in jet with their jackets on and everything."

Like I said without mentioning anyone's names that already has happened. I want to say it's between three to four women out there with _ _ _ on their chest....hey you might meet one one day