Part II of the discussion on Enna's thread, discussing Rush in general

[Angels&Arrows]

I moved this because I felt that Enna deserved this discussion not to be on her thread. Which others must be thinking since, we keep apologizing to her. I am hoping we will pick up from here:

In any given rush:

You have 1/2 of the PNMs above 3.3; members of the cheerleader or dance team, tennis, basketball, volleyball player; served on SG in some capacity from school President to class rep.; (for those in the south) campus beauty, homecoming queen, probably in at least one pageant. If this is a southern school the chances are that at least half are legacies to at least one chapter and legs or not have a min.. of one rec per group.

1/4 of the PNMs have 2.8 – 3.25 GPA, they are members of several student clubs, etc.

and 1/4, just barely meet the requirements set by the school PHC to participate in rush, but maybe not to meet the requirements for pledging.

Now who are you going to look at first? There is not one person on this board that would look at the girl with the 2.25 GPA and no activities, before they looked at the PNM with the 3.6GPA, student body secretary, tennis captain.

Depending on your chapter, you most likely have to automatically drop anyone below a 2.75… Some chapters drop you under a 3.0. (When I was in school we took two grade risks… but now I do not think they take any, it’s just too risky).

If you are at LSU, Ole Miss, MS State, Texas, Auburn, etc. you are dropped if you do not have a rec by the second/third day. Now I know NPCs policy is that it is the chapter’s responsibility to find you a rec… I am here to tell you FIND your own recs!!! I am not saying that recs are not found, but if you are going to school at Ole Miss and you are from Sunnyside, NV; good resume or not, chances are there will be several chapters that will not take the time to call NV (there is not time to check on every PNM without a rec). There are many schools that do not require recs, there are also many schools that ***say they do not***… But I promise they look at them if they are received.

We have seen many girls on this board go through recruitment. We must remember that some of us have taken the time to get to know them. This is something that actives/members have little time to do during rush. Your resume and I hate to say it picture sell you. Once you get your foot in the door, your personality does the rest. However, even the not so nice girls can be on their best behavior during rush. You also have those great, sweet, outgoing etc. girls that can get run down, become sick; or just do not do well in large groups trying to speak over others and do not come across well.

Another problem lately seems to be GLOs cutting to many up front. Some schools are now using certain release figures, they might not have used in the past. Causing chapters to miss quota for the first time in xx years. We have all seen this in the last two years.

I am sure all of us GC alums have are not so old that we have forgotten what rush/recruitment is like. It is the policies and procedures that have kept our organizations going, in some cases for over 150 years. I agree that p/p’s should be updated on occasion to better fit the generations. However, in a lot of cases until the PNMs all go through rush with an open mind and the idea that I would like to be a member of the greek system, not just do or die (insert your GLO). Things are going to stay somewhat the same. I do not think that the chapters are going to stop going for the same xxx PNMs, because those are the ones with a proven track record, GPA, leadership, teamwork, etc. I know we all have friends that are dear to us, but that did not contribute much in school, except help us with our boyfriend issues and were fun to shop with... There is no way that I would ever want my chapter to lower it’s standards, etc. and let in the PNM with a 2.25 GPA, who showed not an ounce of leadership or team work/involvement in High School. Who would carry the chapter on through the next 150 years?

[maggieaxid]

I totally agree with you A&A! I know some people may slam me for this, but its my opinion...we are talking about orgs. that are a 100+ years old in some cases and our founders and past alums have always held other women up to certain standards to join. Why would we change that now, so it can be PC and everyone get a bid?
Granted, we all know women who were allowed to slip through the cracks (ie. Enna and Blazercheer). These, i'm sure, are wonderful girls with wonderful assets. But maybe the time just wasn't right for them, just like every organization isn't right for you. I am a firm believer that everything happens for a reason.
But we can't change 100 years of tradition bc of it.

but thats just what i think.

[AchtungBaby80]

I agree, maggieaxd--we should not drop our standards just so no one's feelings get hurt. It sounds harsh, but that's the way it is. You don't see employers giving all applicants jobs just so everyone can have one, do you? It's the same here. That's why we don't worry about quota--we're not going to sacrifice our standards just to say, "Oh, we have X number of new members!" We take the ones we sincerely want, but we don't want to hand out bids to girls we don't think would make good sisters (for whatever reason) just so we'll be the biggest group on campus. That's not fair to us or the PNMs.

And as for the recs--yes, get your own!!! My campus says sororities are responsible for obtaining them, but I've heard that really, really rare. Now, I didn't have any because I told all the alums I knew not to write any because I didn't think it was important, and I did end up at my first choice. STILL, though...it's better to just go ahead and get them for yourself; that way, you'll likely have more of an edge than someone without them.

[Angels&Arrows]

Why thank you maggie... and please do not worry about being slammed... everyone is entitled to their opinion (plus the color blue, appears purple to some!

And you are so right, many great girls slip through the cracks every year. We have all seen it. I am with you, everything does happen for a reason. There are many GC members that went through rush twice before they found their home... and are often much happier the second time around... Carnation knows of a PNM who went through three times to get the GLO of her choice and God Bless her she succeeded!

[33girl]

I know, I felt bad hijacking Enna's thread, but some of the best discussions on here have come from tangents!

Being from a campus where if you really wanted to be Greek, you could be, it's hard for me to imagine some of the issues that SEC and Big 10 schools have to deal with. However, I will reiterate that I think a lot of problems would be solved if open rush wasn't such a 4-letter word (or actually, 2 4-letter words ). I truly think that there are a lot of women out there who would make stellar sisters and leaders, but they don't want the hassle of formal rush. If they're at a school where COB is looked down on, or not publicized, they probably won't do it - they'll join something else instead.

I know we've been supposed to be going away from the frilly formal rush emphasis for at least 10 years (you know, the whole make them your friend, etc) but I think it's been nothing more than lip service on the part of NPC. I'll reiterate the other point I made and say that I believe member RETENTION is far, far more important than who got the biggest pledge class or who made quota 50 years in a row. Look at the smaller chapters on your campus and see how many of the women who joined as freshmen are still active as seniors - then look at the "showpiece" chapter, and see what the story is there. I know that's somewhat of a sweeping generalization but it was my experience.

As long as NPC keeps emphasizing pulling in the numbers in rush, rather than retaining them throughout school and for life, I don't think anything is going to change.

Oh, and re always going for the superinvolved students from HS, I have to think about a girl I graduated with - our National Honor Society prez, French club prez, yearbook editor, model legislature participant, Junior Achievement leader. Sounds marvelous, right? She got kicked out of Penn State after a semester due to her partying and bad grades. Just to state that you might have been a big deal in HS, but a lot of times it has NO reflection on what you do in college (or vice versa).

[FuzzieAlum]

We don't have 100 years of tradition behind our current rush system. I wish I knew more exactly historically, but things weren't always done the way they are now.

The thing is, rush varies sooooo much from school to school and region to region. A&A's description of rush, while accurate at some schools, isn't anything like it was and still is at my school. Recs? Never saw one. Beauty queens? I knew one during college, and she didn't rush. Cheerleaders? There were a few. Legacies? Almost none. Grades? Yeah, we looked for good grades, but girls got in without stellar ones.

There are schools where formal rush is the only way to get in, and schools where you can join any chapter without going through it. There are schools where even the weakest chapter is filled with beauty queens, and schools where appearance isn't that important. Could I, as a first-generation Greek, with no recs, no cheerleading, flag teaming, class officing, pageanting, nowhere near my hometown with no one from my high school, have gotten into ANY house in a big Southern rush? No way! And maybe I and they would both be missing out, but hey, if it works for them ... the chapters are big and strong, so maybe I shouldn't criticize.

I don't think ANYONE, except maybe a few advisors with too strong a desire for parity, is suggesting GLOs lower their standards. I do think that maybe judging a gal based on a few hours at most of stilted rush parties can't tell you whether she's really a good person or not - but making an impression quickly is important, because she'll have to turn it around and do it again the next year for the next bunch of rushees. I think a more thoughtful rush would produce *better* quality sisters. I think you shouldn't invite a girl to pref unless you'd be willing to bid her, so why are girls going to multiple pref parties, not SIPing, and not getting bids? That's what I think people are perceiving as unfair.

But despite all that, the problem isn't the system, I don't think, as much as I may not like the system as it is now. The system can work, as some schools show. The problem is that the NPC rush rules are not universally and equally applied. Raise your hand if you've seen any of the following at a school you know:

1) Sororities releasing too few girls
2) No use of quota plus
3) Problems with a bid-match system (technical ones)
4) Slip-ups that end up with a girl not being invited to the right parties
5) Rho Chis that don't care if their girls drop
6) Need for expansion but no GLO has the money necessary to come in
7) Dirty rushing totally being ignored
8) Ceiling not being adjusted for the number of rushees (aka numbers are going up or down and rushees are crying or the houses are all begging for members)
9) Girls being forced to accept bids they don't want
10) SIPing being encouraged/allowed (even if you like it, it is against NPC policy)

If none of these are going on at your school, congratulations. I bet you have a strong system, most houses are at or near ceiling, and the majority of qualified rushees (not just the "best," but no 1.5 GPA drug dealers) are getting spots. But if not ... and I'm going to bet this is most schools ... something needs to be done. Maybe not as drastic as my earlier suggestion. Maybe just a "cleanup" of the process. At my school there was rampant distrust of the Greek life advisor, and he was notoriously secretive about the bid-matching process. I would dearly love for Panhellenic to come in and take a look at things for us.

If, after the system is working properly, qualified girls and strong chapters are still unhappy with the process, it would be time to change it. I do think that GLOs all over the country should have high membership standards, but I don't necessarily think that works for one sort of campus will work for another. Some locales don't have a strong Greek tradition and girls have to be coaxed. Others have to turn away legacies. If you want both systems to be strong, it would make sense to approach them differently.

[Cloud9]

As far as following tradition goes, of course this is an important part of greek letter society. However, I would be very surprised if anyone here could tell me that certain things, like chapter meetings, rush, new member education, and social activities are held in exactly the same way as they were 100 years ago. In fact, some aspects are VASTLY different then they were 20 years ago! Yes, upholding the essential traditions are important to the survival of an organization. But so is changing and growing. As with anything in this world, those who can't adapt get left behind. What worked before won't always work in the future, and just because what worked before seems to work now doesn't mean that there's an even better way. And whoever finds it will be ahead of the rest until they decide to catch up. Just a thought.

[Angels&Arrows]

While we don't have 100 years behind our current recruitment system... It was 100 years ago in 1902 that Pi Phi, Gamma Phi, Kappa, Theta, Alpha Phi, DG and Tri-Delta joined together to form the Natioinal Panhellenic Conference... and only a year later Chi Omega and A Chi O joined.

And 151 years since women came together to form bonds that would soon lead to groups that we now call sororities/fraternities/GLOs.

FuzzieAlum, I agree that my description only fits some schools, as yours fits others... and I am sure that there are some in between both descriptions.

I am sure that our fellow sisters looked for some of the same traits in a new member/sister that we do today!!!

I just have to say I LOVE PI PHI!!!

[FuzzieAlum]

I am sure there are many of the same things we look for - high character, scholastic achievement, friendliness, etc. But, aside from good grades, how the rest of it is expressed is different. 100 years ago, we didn't have cheerleaders or many beauty pageants. Girls who were very athletic probably would have been looked down upon. And I'm sure the clothes we think are cute for rush would have gotten them booted out of school!

All I'm saying is that while tradition is important, society slowly changes. We oughtn't be wedded to the idea of doing formal rush the same old way just because we did it in the past, or we'll render ourselves archaic. I don't think that has to mean giving up standards. I don't think that formal rush gets a sorority "better" members than informal or COB does, and there might be a system out there that gets us even more terrific members. I know a lot of great women who would have been great Greeks, and I ask myself, well, why aren't they Greek? If it was the system that deterred them, I wonder if a different system could bring them in. I'm not saying we should just get more women, no matter who they are, or that anyone who is interested deserves a place.

After all, one of the reasons the NPC was formed was to end bad practices like pledge-stealing and joining more than one sorority. The NPC was designed to make sorority life better and increase inter-Greek cooperation. Likewise, nowadays, it addresses issues such as alcohol-free housing and fair expansion. It still is changing the way we rush - look at the push for no-frills rush. I don't think we should be afraid to tinker with recruitment in places where it doesn't work as well as it ought.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by Angels&Arrows
There is not one person on this board that would look at the girl with the 2.25 GPA and no activities, before they looked at the PNM with the 3.6GPA, student body secretary, tennis captain.

I don't know about this. I think I can say that I would, IF. I would if I just plain old LIKED the girl with the 2.25 and no activities better. I understand that groups want women with good grades and activites, but when it comes down to picking sisters with whom you will be sitting up all night in your pajamas eating ice cream and crying over heartbreak, who in the heck cares if she was on student council in high school? Maybe I'm weird, but I don't see how that woman makes a better sister. I do understand that grades matter in that they are a requirement, but I'm talking about the rest of the stuff. And the whole beauty queen thing -- I know it does matter at some schools, but how in the heck does being a beauty queen make someone appealing as a SISTER?

I see it as more of a zen thing I guess. If you're talking to someone and you just *like* her, you feel it and I don't think that other stuff matters so much. To quote from the awesome History of the Alpha Phi Fraternity book I just received, our founders felt the "need of a social center, a place of conference, a tie which should unite, a circle of friends who could sympathize with one another in their perplexities." By worrying about activities and what not, aren't we actually getting away from the true meaning of sisterhood?

[HelloKitty22]

I agree with a lot of what has been said in this thread. I was someone who was dropped from recruitment and then became a sister in Tri-Delta. The reality is that many girls who really want the greek experience and would make great sisters just are not very "good" at rush.
The main problem with rush is that you have to have a certain type of personality to get through it successfully. You have to be extremely self-confident, good in a large group, and be able to BS people extremely well. Those are great traits but, personally, I don't want all my sisters to be the same.
We have to remember that the girls going through rush are about 17 or 18 years old. There whole personalities haven't even formed yet. Shouldn't rush be a time to get to know the "real" them vs. a glamour shot and 20 mins of what's your major?
I know that most greek women were "sucessful" rushees and therefore their first inclination is protect the system that got them where they are, but we are cheating ourselves and our sisterhoods when we say that the NPC formal recruitment system is the best way to pick sisters.

Some of the things I think could improve recruitment:
1) END DELAYED RECRUITMENT - I know this is controversial but coming from a delayed rush school I can honestly say it is necessary. In principal, delayed recruitment makes sense (helps the girls adjust to school first, ect.). However, in reality, it ensures that rushees are NOT going into rush with an open mind (they've been listening all fall to what people have to say). It also severly tempts dirty rushing. GLO's want to get the best girls and they spend all semester trying to identify them and sway them before rush even starts. (it makes for a very unfair playing field among rushees) Finally, with delayed rush, the grades with which you are consided are the grades from fall of freshman year not the 4 years worth of high school grades you have. (I personally had about a B/B+ average in high school but with the stress of going to college and all the change in my life my first semester grades in college were the worst grades I ever got)
2) Be more honest about the recruitment process - While this is less of a problem in places where rush education is done in the high schools, I am from New York and no woman I know had ever rushed before. I knew nothing. If I had known it was my responsibility to get recs, I probably would. It should not be the responsibility of rushees to discypher the rush rules. Sororities should spell them out clearly, not make misleading comments like "don't worry if you don't have a rec" or "it doesn't matter if the picture's good, it's for identification purposes"
3) Make first rounds longer - When first rounds only last 20 or 30 minutes and you meet 2 or 3 sisters, how can houses really get any idea what the girl is like? Unless she does something completely outrageous, a 10 minute conversation does not adequately tell you whether you want to share your sisterhood with a person. I once calculated that after going through all of rush at my school you would have spent a total of two and a half hours with the house to which you joined. I personally wouldn't even except a date with a guy I'd only met for two and a half hours.

I know some of the things I have said may seem like the ramblings of someone who was rejected and is angry, but remember that I am a sorority woman too and I want great sisters just like you all do. I do not advocate the idea of open rush or the lowering of sorority standards. However, I do strongly believe in mutual selection. Unfortunately, the system we have now, I believe, stacks things too far in the sororities' favor and makes the reality into "I end up where they took me." Mutual selection means putting power not only into the sorority's hands but also into the rushees.

P.S. I do not believe that thinks happen for a reason. Sometimes the machine that is rush gives bids to women who make lousy sisters and eats great interesting girls alive. Sometimes the machine does both at the same time. That is the reality of rush.

[SoCalGirl]

"Bid Day is not the chapter report card of recruitment. It's the kick off of recruitment!"

[Floridagirl]

FuzzieAlum, I think you, HelloKitty and me are the only ones who think that the sororities have all the power in rush and are not hesitating to use it. The popularity of sororities comes and goes. Remember the 60s and 70s? Well, this period followed an incredible boom in sororities of the 40s and 50s. During the 40s and 50s, like now, the sororities became increasingly selective every year as more and more women rushed. It is the simple rule of supply and demand. Now the demand to be in sororities is great and the supply is not expanding at the same rate. It is easy when are in a position of power to demand and get everything you want. Right now that is a 5'2"-5'6", size 6, freshman, who is blond with blue or green eyes, who also has a 3.5-4.0 G.P.A. and also was a cheerleader or some other kind of major celebrity in H.S. Or as close to this as possible. It seems all the houses go for this and they don't really care if they get quota because after years of great rushes most are over campus ceiling anyway. So what if they only get 40 when quota is 50. If they have 180-200 members who's going to miss 10? Unfortunately, many great women are being permanently turned off and they are tellling their frioends and family. Some of these women who in any other era would be sought after women will take this experience into their lives and never recommend sororities to their daughters or anyone else. It takes decades to recover from being "out". We need to consider some of the recommendations that have been proposed to level the playing field like guarantee the rushee a bid if they go to pref night and have followed all the rules.

[Floridagirl]

I just wanted to add that during the 60s and 70s on my campus the following sororities had to close due to lack of members: SDT,AGD,AXD,AXO,ZTA, and DZ. Also ADPi, AEPhi, KD and GPhi B were just hanging on only getting 1/2 quota every year and quota had gone down to very low numbers. Even the houses that were getting quota barely had enough members to sustain the houses financially. All members were required to live in or they lost their pins.We need to take seriously what happened at UGA and USC. I am afraid that we are getting a rep for being elitist and we will pay for it again.

[MTSUGURL]

Just curious what is typically considered more desirable when you meet a PNM - stellar grades and minimal activity, or adequate grades with lots of social and volunteer activities and leadership experience? For instance, OPA (not an NPC group of course) looks for service and leadership first/