The Confederate Flag

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Of course, there certainly were abolitionists for whom it was moral issue.

True, which is why I included the ETA:

Originally Posted by SydneyK

There were plenty of northerners who wanted to abolish slavery for non-moral reasons, just as there were plenty of southerners who wanted to abolish slavery for moral reasons.

I should have clarified that the opposite of each is also true.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

There certainly are major factors such as slavery, which as you say may be the predominant factor. But it's a mistake to reduce it to "The Civil War was about x," even if that x is a major factor There were lots of inter-related things going on -- racial factors, class factors, economic factors, religious factors, philosophical factors, governmental factors . . . . The reason one person supported one side or the other may have been quite different from his neighbors reasons.

Absolutely. I never meant to suggest the Civil War was about only slavery. In fact, had I not already been quoted as saying "(if not the major factor)" I would've deleted that just to avoid being thought of as thinking the war was only about slavery. I think that the other factors you listed (racial, class, economic, religious, philosophical, governmental) all have either direct or indirect connections to slavery, but I don't maintain that the Civil War was The War on Slavery.

[thetaj]

Do people in the North honestly believe that when people in the South fly the rebel flag, they're doing so because they're racist/pleased with the results of slavery/trying to reverse the outcome of the Civil War? Honest question. Because if you HONESTLY think that's why it's flown down here, then shame on you for being so ignorant about the South.

As far as the article is concerned, yeah, bad choice. But that made the news because it is NOT why the flag is usually flown. You only ever hear about the exceptions, not the rule itself.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

Absolutely. I never meant to suggest the Civil War was about only slavery.

I know. I was trying to build on what you said, not disagree with it.

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by thetaj

Do people in the North honestly believe that when people in the South fly the rebel flag, they're doing so because they're racist/pleased with the results of slavery/trying to reverse the outcome of the Civil War? Honest question. Because if you HONESTLY think that's why it's flown down here, then shame on you for being so ignorant about the South.

As far as the article is concerned, yeah, bad choice. But that made the news because it is NOT why the flag is usually flown. You only ever hear about the exceptions, not the rule itself.

I guess I shouldn't answer since I'm not in the North.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by *winter*

As for the question, would someone rip it down in a Northern black neighborhood? I'm willing to bet yes. People up north rip down signs for the "other guy" in politics, they rip down and/or TP signs for the rival sports team...I'm not saying I agree but I can see that haopening. Heck, immured enough to go hang one inthe neighboring town, on an abandoned house, and see how long it lasts...

It depends on the context just like it does in the south.

Northerners love to get cocky and pretend as though these dynamics somehow get lost the further north you drive. In fact, nonsoutherners period like to pretend that is the case. Segregation, racism, discrimination, and overall inequality persist in every region of this country. That is the case regardless of how many people claim they don't see it happening in their own background and how badass people pretend to be about whooping someone's ass or tearing down flags. People in every region (that includes the billy badass northerners) see things they disagree with everyday and have to learn how to ignore things that offend them everyday. Whooptywooooo.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by thetaj

Do people in the North honestly believe that when people in the South fly the rebel flag, they're doing so because they're racist/pleased with the results of slavery/trying to reverse the outcome of the Civil War? Honest question.

The overwhelming majority clearly stated that this feeling happened when people in the NORTH fly the "stars 'n bars." The symbolism is different, particularly when those folks have no (lineage or direct) connection to the south.

Or, to flip it - do people in the South honestly believe that people from the North should associate the rebel flag with something other than racism/slavery/abasement of non-whites? Because that's essentially the same question.

[DrPhil]

I'm so excited that my thread made Tom Earp post. Woohoo!!!!!!

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Or, to flip it - do people in the South honestly believe that people from the North should associate the rebel flag with something other than racism/slavery/abasement of non-whites? Because that's essentially the same question.

^^^this

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Northerners love to get cocky and pretend as though these dynamics somehow get lost the further north you drive. In fact, nonsoutherners period like to pretend that is the case. Segregation, racism, discrimination, and overall inequality persist in every region of this country.

Right - Dorchester and Queensbridge and West Philly and Camden still exist, even if our shit doesn't stink. There's no reason to assume superiority based on a wholly-imagined line on a map.

In fact, so-called "northern" racism might be more pernicious in some ways - I can imagine scenarios in which one might prefer overt, in-your-face racism over subtle institutional racism.

That is to say, no matter what I think of ol' Rebel Jack, it doesn't change the racial composition of the hotel staff (from cleaning to front desk) where I'm staying.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Right - Dorchester and Queensbridge and West Philly and Camden still exist, even if our shit doesn't stink. There's no reason to assume superiority based on a wholly-imagined line on a map.

In fact, so-called "northern" racism might be more pernicious in some ways - I can imagine scenarios in which one might prefer overt, in-your-face racism over subtle institutional racism.

That is to say, no matter what I think of ol' Rebel Jack, it doesn't change the racial composition of the hotel staff (from cleaning to front desk) where I'm staying.

Precisely although the overt and covert were always combined.

I am in the school of thought that the in-your-face only existed to reinforce and solidify the institutional. The best way to persistently exclude groups of people is to identify and target them, label them, and mistreat them so they will be socialized as the power minority. The economic backdrop of slavery (across societies) and servitude targeted groups of people who were easily identified as "the other." The system and structure were already being mobilized. Now they just needed to make the people believe it all--get the individual-level dynamics. That's how you can still have people (nationally and internationally) who are still lost in the sauce centuries later.

[*winter*]

No one is saying northern racism isn't an issue. Obviously it is, since the educational disparities between minorities here are astounding in some places. Our cities are a disgrace- we are home to places where blacks have higher unemployment rates then they did pre civil rights movement. Also not saying that rippig down a flag in any way changes those disparities...

I'm willing to bet that a white person would not have the (insert word here) to fly that flag in a predominantly black neighborhood.

I'm also willing to bet if you hung that in the "black" neighborhods in Camden or Philly it would be an issue, and people in the neighborhood (assuming black people- since we are speaking of the incident taking place in an all black neighborhood) would be very vocal in letting you know that they are offended. It's not necessarily appropriate, it will never make sense to southerners, and it doesn't make them the next Rosa Parks, but there is something to be said for standing up for what you believe in.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by *winter*

I'm willing to bet that a white person would not have the (insert word here) to fly that flag in a predominantly black neighborhood.

That is also rare in the south for two reasons:

1. White people tend not to live in historically and predominantly Black neighborhoods unless it is being gentrified. That's a different discussion altogether.

2. The relative few white people who do live in historically and predominantly Black neighborhoods have their Black Card Cliff Notes and have a general idea what to do and what not to do.

Originally Posted by *winter*

I'm also willing to bet if you hung that in the "black" neighborhods in Camden or Philly it would be an issue, and people in the neighborhood (assuming black people- since we are speaking of the incident taking place in an all black neighborhood) would be very vocal in letting you know that they are offended. It's not necessarily appropriate, it will never make sense to southerners, and it doesn't make them the next Rosa Parks, but there is something to be said for standing up for what you believe in.

Oh awesome...well that's what happened in this story. So, basically, the people in your scenario are doing the same thing the people in this story are doing. In fact, the people in this story are extremely blatant about their opposition.

I'm still waiting for the north vs. south difference.

As for Rosa Parks...bleh.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by steveg

The one thing you cannot change is "HISTORY"!

It happened right or wrong!

A flag or banner is just that.

There are people today who will ignore the Flag/banner of the USA.

Now, my question are you one of them?

Down the road, history and those who are still here will ask the same question!

Will this also go for your fraternity/sorority Flags/banners?

Get over it, please!

People died for their beleifs are you redy to do that?

Sounds like B S to me!

I already know the answer to this question but I'm just gonna ask anyway...

...are you drunk?

[*winter*]

So...I've thought about it, and I've come to 2 conclusions:

1) I guess I assume people in general are always more pleasant in the south and more confrontational in the north, which leads to point 2...

2) I have a very skewed world view!

As for the entire issue of what Northerners think of the CF and why...pondering this on the way home from work...where I'm passed by a lifted old Ford truck- giant tires, gun rack, swerving in and out of lanes aggressively- and, you guessed it- sporting a CF decorative plate! THIS is the image we come to associate with those who use the flag. Thing is, growing up in a city, I never really saw CFs until I went awayto college. And then, they were never flying proud in front of a nicely manicured split level ranch...but posted next to signs like "Insured by Smith & Wesson"'and "Redneck and Proud!". Really...around here, that is the typical CF fan. So we tend to associate them with such folks.

After living in the South in the military, and working with a diverse group of people, I've come to understand the fact that it's seen differently in the south. Normal people fly it as a symbol of their heritage.

It's just (and sadly, too) gotten a terrible rap around here due to all those who use it simply as a form of showing pride in the wrong things. It also intimidates minorities because of that association. Whenever I do field visits with other staff members, the non white ones start to get nervous when they spot a few in the country. Which brings me to my next point- these jokers give ALL rural people a bad name- many of the non-white field staff members were very unsure about visiting my county field area because of all the heresy that "those people are racist." when I got them out and meeting people, they realized what everyone does- the majority of small town PA people are not imbred hateful people, but just normal folks who have problems and are glad to accept some assistance with them, regardless of the race of the engineer.

People like that just screw it up for everyone.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by thetaj

Do people in the North honestly believe that when people in the South fly the rebel flag, they're doing so because they're racist/pleased with the results of slavery/trying to reverse the outcome of the Civil War? Honest question. Because if you HONESTLY think that's why it's flown down here, then shame on you for being so ignorant about the South.

No, I believe that's why the majority of people in the North (who have no ties to the South or the Confederacy) fly the rebel flag. I have no idea why people in the South do it.

And everything in winter's post above. So if she's skewed, I'm skewed too. It seems like in the last 2 decades or so, people from the rural areas around here seem to want to wallow in the worst stereotypes of it, whereas before they aspired to something better. There's a difference between being proud of where you're from and acting like it gives you a license to be an uneducated ignoramus.