Cheating Scandal in Atlanta Public Schools

[UGAalum94]

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/inve...g-1001375.html

APS is just one of the districts in the metro Atlanta area. The original study that found the cheating found occasional scattered problems around the state, but nothing like what they found in APS. The stuff hit the fan when, unlike other districts, APS seemed to do very little after having their own panel investigate and report on the problem, so the then-governor ordered a new investigation.

[DrPhil]

That sucks.

Old news: Public school systems, especially districts with certain demographics, shouldn't be left to struggle.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That sucks.

Old news: Public school systems, especially districts with certain demographics, shouldn't be left to struggle.

What do you mean about being left to struggle?

APS actually has some of the highest funding per student in the state. The kids' homes may be poor, but the district is not. Mismanaged, almost certainly, but they've got the resources coming in. If you have an elected school board who appoints the superintendent, who comes in to save the day?

At this point, I can see the state justifying more regulation of the district, but short of this kind of investigation, how do you justify taking authority away from the elected school board, even if it's the name of preventing them from struggling?

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That sucks.

Old news: Public school systems, especially districts with certain demographics, shouldn't be left to struggle.

Which demographics?

And how do you stop them from struggling?

[AGDLynn]

What is a total joke is that the Superintendent and her staff basically are saying "we don't know nuthing".

Well, sweetie, you were told and/or how could you explain such huge rises in scores and dropping when the scandal hit?

As the report said, they were quick to take credit but quicker to deny that something was wrong.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

What do you mean about being left to struggle?

APS actually has some of the highest funding per student in the state. The kids' homes may be poor, but the district is not. Mismanaged, almost certainly, but they've got the resources coming in. If you have an elected school board who appoints the superintendent, who comes in to save the day?

At this point, I can see the state justifying more regulation of the district, but short of this kind of investigation, how do you justify taking authority away from the elected school board, even if it's the name of preventing them from struggling?

But if *real* scores were used, wouldn't they have faced losing most of their federal funding due to NCLB? Basing funding on test scores is going to lead to things like this. I'm not justifying their behavior, just noting that people will do what they need to do to get funding if desperate.

[axoalum]

I can hardly believe they haven't rescinded her award as top superintendent in the US. I also see the Gates Foundation will continue to drop cash on them. I know they need the extra support, but how about a little help out here in the 'burbs? Teaching positions are being cut left and right out here.

[BraveMaroon]

So many thoughts here... I'll preface this by saying I grew up in Atlanta and went to public schools in Fulton County.

1. APS needs to start recruiting teachers from Gwinnett, Cobb and Dekalb (and beyond) to come in and teach. Not teach for the CRCT, but to come in and get the basics under control. If they have the basics, the CRCT is much easier.

2. The people in North Fulton who want to break off and become Milton County need to shut the hell up and start becoming part of the solution. Don't like what's going on in South Fulton? Work on it, don't walk away from it. And remember that when you were Milton County during the depression, Fulton incorporated you and saved your ass. Maybe it's time to pay up?

3. Fire every last person who was complicit in the cheating scandal. The message you need to send educators, parents and children is that what happened is not acceptable, and it's not going to happen again.

4. Standardized tests are for the birds. I understand why they're necessary, but really, they're one of many ways to gauge comprehension. They are, to paraphrase John McCain circa 2008, doing microscopic surgery with a chainsaw. As long as there are standardized tests, we will have cheating scandals that were enacted to circumvent the system. It's the American Way!!

Ok, that's all I have to say for now.

[sigmadiva]

^^^^ BraveMaroon,

I understand all your points except #1. Why would recruiting teachers from certain areas (counties) make a difference? Are Georgia teachers held to a state requirement, or a county requirement?

We have had the same cheating problem here in Houston at certain schools with certain teachers, but nothing on this scale district wide.

[axoalum]

BraveMaroon, I get what you are saying about Fulton in general but as a taxpayer for 25 yrs there (3 now in Gwinnett) and having lived in North Fulton from when it was just a bunch of cows and crappy roads, I always felt that we got the short end of the stick when it came to funds for schools, park and rec, etc. Both of my daughters graduated from Fulton public schools. IMO Gwinnett is doing a much better job of distributing the funds equally. I am not opposed to South Fulton getting an extra boost but many of us never really felt that we had a voice.

I agree about getting new teachers in there but have never understood why the APS had a reputation of some of the worst teachers. Didn't they pay as much or more? Maybe you have more insight and can shed some light on that for me.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AGDee

But if *real* scores were used, wouldn't they have faced losing most of their federal funding due to NCLB? Basing funding on test scores is going to lead to things like this. I'm not justifying their behavior, just noting that people will do what they need to do to get funding if desperate.

Exactly. Struggle comes from all sides. A predominantly poor district will have struggles even if it has "some of the highest funding per student in the state." That funding buffers some of the effects and gets the school district more (just "more") up to par. What happens once the school is supposedly up to par is a different story.

Misappropriated funds, teachers and staff who are considered inadequate for whatever reasons, and cheating scandals---all more likely to happen at certain districts no matter what state you are in.

[BraveMaroon]

Originally Posted by axoalum

BraveMaroon, I get what you are saying about Fulton in general but as a taxpayer for 25 yrs there (3 now in Gwinnett) and having lived in North Fulton from when it was just a bunch of cows and crappy roads, I always felt that we got the short end of the stick when it came to funds for schools, park and rec, etc.


I agree about getting new teachers in there but have never understood why the APS had a reputation of some of the worst teachers. Didn't they pay as much or more? Maybe you have more insight and can shed some light on that for me.

I lived in North Fulton for 30 years (born, raised and schooled), and had to laugh at the cows and crappy roads. Alpharetta used to be a joke - it was where hillbillies lived. Times have changed. I think that Fulton could always improve the distribution of funds, but I think North Fulton needs to drop the Us vs. Them mentality.

My thought with APS teachers is that they don't make quite as much as their counterparts in outlying counties, and most people who live in Atlanta don't actually live in Atlanta. Like, I'm "from Atlanta", and by that, I mean I was born at Piedmont Hospital and grew up in Roswell - I also lived in Atlanta after graduation, and because my voting district was technically unincorporated Sandy Springs (right on the edge of Buckhead), I didn't get to vote for a mayor (talk about not having a voice). This was a decade ago, so again - it's been awhile. You need to pay people a little more so that they can either live in the city comfortably, or are willing to get up every morning and drive in from Duluth or Lithonia or Marietta.

To SigmaDiva's point, I don't think living outside of Atlanta makes you a better teacher automatically, but I think if they had more to offer in general and cast a wider net in recruiting, I think they'd get some great talent. I think that's true not just for Atlanta, but in general. Make being a teacher something worth doing, and the right kinds of people will flock to the profession.

That doesn't solve the problem of a corrupt system, but it's a start.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by AGDee

But if *real* scores were used, wouldn't they have faced losing most of their federal funding due to NCLB? Basing funding on test scores is going to lead to things like this. I'm not justifying their behavior, just noting that people will do what they need to do to get funding if desperate.

Nope. Only non-compliance results in loss of funds*. (Like you didn't give the tests, submit reports, that kind of thing, I think.) Funding is based on testing in the sense that you have to participate to get money, but not very tightly based on the results.

I believe the worst case for failing schools is restructuring in which the majority of staff are replaced at the school, but what's apparently really happened in most of the cases that have gone that far in other states is that the majority of staff will be moved within the district, rather than completely terminated. AND other corrective action counts as restructuring, like extending the day, etc, as I understand it. The district really didn't face that kind of pressure.

And there are other districts that have similar demographics in Georgia who apparently didn't feel the need to cheat, so I don't think there's any reason to give them a "well-their-backs-were-to-the-wall" pass on a systemic level. At the individual level, it's a little more complicated for me because I think it would be very hard to resist that level of direct pressure from your principal and colleagues, and other elementary jobs were pretty hard to find during this time period, for the most part.

But even then, you don't seen cheating in 100% of APS classrooms, so some people did act ethically in spite of the pressure.

This is district created pressure that was apparently resistible for some.

ETA: http://www.georgia-criminal-lawyers....egin_frau.html

Apparently, they were seeking additional federal funds for being "Distinguished" schools. And they could have lost this additional funding if they didn't score as well. But NCLB doesn't result in loss of your basic federal funding unless you opt out.

EATA: http://old.sccpss.com/District/Acade...+and+Myths.htm

This is kind of nice overview and explains that regular federal funding isn't tied to results.

[BetteDavisEyes]

Originally Posted by BraveMaroon

4. Standardized tests are for the birds. I understand why they're necessary, but really, they're one of many ways to gauge comprehension. They are, to paraphrase John McCain circa 2008, doing microscopic surgery with a chainsaw. As long as there are standardized tests, we will have cheating scandals that were enacted to circumvent the system.

AMEN! I LOATHE standardized tests! In my school, testing starts in May so as of March, all regular teaching of the curriculum is put to a halt and we are to teach ONLY the "essential standards" that are tested heavily in the test so that our students can receive higher scores. We also hold tutoring sessions everyday after school for those students who are borderline being proficient so that they can score Proficient or Advanced. We don't allow the kids who are Basic or lower to enjoy these tutoring sessions b/c if they go from Far Below Basic to Basic, no points are awarded. They MUST be Proficient or Advanced.

Once we receive our scores, students who did score Proficient or Advanced get a BBQ & party during the school day. Those who did not get to stay in the classroom and work on study skills and writing & are left to reflect as to why the didn't get Proficient or Advanced. The teachers on the other hand have their scores posted noticeable so that everyone else on staff can see how they compared to every other teacher in their grade level. Then you can see how awesome you are or how much you suck as a teacher.

And people wonder why there's so much pressure put on students and teachers? Testing does not work if it is used as the ONLY means of measuring success.

[UGAalum94]

APS is one of the higher paid Metro areas districts, I'm pretty sure. Their salary information is down right now, so I can't check.

You guys doing the North Fulton/ South Fulton comparison are looking at a whole different district, but it's an interesting comparison with APS at the South Fulton level.
The demographics are comparable, but there's no systemic South Fulton cheating scandal. South Fulton schools aren't necessarily known for their great administration and some are really hard to staff, and yet, nothing like an APS response to testing pressure.

It's one thing to talk about supporting a struggling district, but if the district has repeated demonstrated that it mismanaged money and already has a surplus of county level administrators and non-classroom positions, what are you really going to do? What form does the support take?

And something else to consider, especially as data analysis seems to show a lot of the seemingly good urban results failing apart in terms of suspicious test gains, is that it's really hard to find people who have demonstrated success in schools like APS and South Fulton. Someone who can be a great principal with the situation at Chattahoochee doesn't necessarily have the skill set necessarily to make it happen at Tri-Cities. Just because a teacher can teach the heck out of kids at Walton doesn't mean he or she can motivate the kids at Crim. Even if you raised salaries to the point that people applied, a lot of suburban folks who look good on paper because they've been at schools with a lot of academic parental involvement, are simply not going to be able to get the job done without it.

I'm certainly not saying that we quit trying, but saying districts shouldn't be left to struggle and actually figuring out what to do are wildly different things. Most of the things people think will work have been tried in various forms.