Let's get spiritual..

SigmaChiCard · #1 06-10-2002, 08:57 AM

Okay

I was thinking about the fact I'd not been in a heavy religion based conversation in a while, so I was curious if anyone would want to divulge anything in their belief-system? I'll start.

Born & indoctrinated into a religion I feel there are two general people-types....Socrates might say the same, calling them the philosophers and the non-philosophers....I think there are those who accept this indocrination open-heartedly...and there are those who question it thoroughly and seek 'their' honest religion. I've definitely been the later. In an effort not to make this post too long, I'll skip the questioning period of my life.....but I still can't listen to too many Bible readings without getting sometimes Frustrated. It's not because I don't believe what's in them....I guess it is the way they are presented to me.

Also with all of my studying I've learned from a multitude of sources and have formulated things as I see them that touch in several of my areas of study. I do not believe in hell....I think it is a scare tactic....I believe in Heaven though I feel it is hardly attainable...I don't think you die and go to one place or the other. I believe in reincarnation, or Socrates' concepts of perpetual reciprocity vs linear continuity. I don't believe that going to church makes you a good person, or that any religion is better than another...only that certain beliefs belong to certaiin thought processes and that as long as you try to be good all things will in the end work themselves out. I believe that believing is nothing compared to questioning because only one of the two requires thought.

I believe that the Bible is nothing more than a book of good stories that teach valuable lessons and that any transcendental concepts it once held have been lost in translation. While that sounds bad, would one of you please write in Japanese the concept of the DAO, then translate it to English? Some concepts cannot be translated, if they can even be written at all. My beliefes of Jesus being Lord, God Almighty??? I worship God, and I think that Jesus was the greatest of the christian revolutionaries, but I do not think that he is God. So I worship God, but not Jesus in that sense....I'd feel like I'm worshipping a Golden Lamb. Scorn me, but if you know much about Christianity compared to Islam, they are VERY much the same on a hundred different levels. One thing I think they have right is that they do not worship Muhammed in the converntional sense that we (as a people) worship Jesus....they worship Allah directly while I think most Christians are honestly scared to do so.

Tell me what you think.....

and we're all adults here, so I don't think that you should hold much in.....but please, no one try to push your religion on someone else and tell them they are wrong...thanks...

jonsagara · #2 06-10-2002, 09:32 AM

Quote:

I believe that the Bible is nothing more than a book of good stories that teach valuable lessons

I agree with that.

I also believe that there is no "God." I believe there is no Satan. No heaven. No hell. There is just life. You're born, you live, you die. End of story.

At the risk of sounding offensive, I believe religion to be two things:

1) A mental crutch for those who need hope in their lives.
2) An ingenious mind control device created to control the masses. What better way is there to control people than to tell them that if they misbehave, they will burn in hell forever; or if they live a life full of virtue and piety, they will live in eternal bliss in the kingdom of God?

It takes a far stretch of my imagination, and a leap of faith a little too large, for me to believe that three invisible men in the sky are in control of my life. On the other hand, I am glad for the time that I spent reading the Bible because, as has already been pointed out, it contains many valuable lessons regarding morality.

My $0.02.

SigmaChiCard · #3 06-10-2002, 09:40 AM

"Sir, we ought to teach the people that they are doing wrong in worshipping the images and pictures in the temple."

Ramakrishna: "That's the way with you Calcutta people: you want to teach and peach. You want to give millions when you are beggars yourselves... Do you think God does not know that he is being worshipped in the images and pictures? If a worshipper should make a mistake, do you not think God will know his intent?"

- The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna

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"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
- Stephen Roberts

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Corbin Dallas · #4 06-10-2002, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jonsagara
...It takes a far stretch of my imagination, and a leap of faith a little too large, for me to believe that three invisible men in the sky are in control of my life...

That's the beauty of religion though, unless you believe otherwise (does that make sense?) there is no one, visible or invisible that is in control of your life. You are free to choose to follow or not follow any religion. I know some religions believe that everything in your life is preordained, but I know with Christianity, God gave you the choice to follow him or not to. If you don't, it's your deal.

straightBOS · #5 06-10-2002, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaChiCard
One thing I think they have right is that they do not worship Muhammed in the converntional sense that we (as a people) worship Jesus....they worship Allah directly while I think most Christians are honestly scared to do so.

But, Islam follows Christianity, and much of what is contained in the Koran is re-packaged from Christianity and Judaism. The concept of Allah is entirely Jewish. The concept of Muhammad is re-packaged Jesus.

Also, much of the Bible (the Old Testament) comes from the Jewish tradition- the TNK. A Torah scroll is copied letter for letter, so, if you like, you could read it in the original Hebrew so as not to lose anything in translation. Also, the New Testament can be read in the original Greek or Latin Vulgate, if you are weary of English translations and mis-translations.

You are not required to believe in Jesus, except for one religion. And, even in that, there is much variation. So, actually a Christian can worship God directly. Christianity probably has more diversity in worship than any other religion on earth.

I went through some of the same issues, but being able to read Latin, Greek and learning some Hebrew has helped immensely.
Also, anthropology and archaeology help. The Flood story is older than most people realize. So, there might actually be some truth to it. It is in fact, as true as the theory of evolution.

Also, Dao writings are much newer than the religion. In fact, writing was unnecessary for understanding Daoism. So, no translation or writing will do it justice, but it doesn't necessary make it more valid. (Not saying that you said that, just saying.)

Might also add that Socrates never wrote anything, not one word. So how can we be sure he ever said anything that Plato claims he said? May be his place in history is entirely invalid?

Just some thoughts, good topic.

valkyrie · #6 06-10-2002, 11:40 AM

Great topic!

I'm not sure if y'all have checked out the "religion selector" at speakout.com --

http://speakout.com/activismtools/selectors/religion/

I found it pretty interesting.

As far as my religious beliefs (or lack thereof), they most closely align with the teachings of Buddhism. I have also investigated various religions over the years; I was raised Christian, but to me, personally, Christianity doesn't make sense. I have probably done the most research on the Baha'i faith and Buddhism. Buddhism makes the most sense to me of all the religions -- I think that the idea of karma and rebirth, while not comforting, seems more realistic, at least in terms of my understanding of the world, than the idea of heaven and hell.

That said, I am by no means a religious person. For the most part, I agree with jonsagara.

LeslieAGD · #7 06-10-2002, 11:58 AM

valkyrie's link is expired, but this is the new one:
http://www.selectsmart.com/RELIGION/

valkyrie · #8 06-10-2002, 12:03 PM

Thanks Leslie! I noticed that after I posted it. Oops.

swissmiss04 · #9 06-10-2002, 12:11 PM

I am in the process of learning about Islam, with the eventual intent of converting. Muhammed is NOT a "repackaged Jesus" but an entirely different person. Muslims recognize Jesus as a prophet and a good man, just not the son of God. Muhammed is the greatest of all the prophets and he is the one who wrote the Qu'ran (through divine inspiration). I was born and raised a Christian but in the last few years began to have my doubts. While I still call myself a "Christian" I know in my heart that's not what I really am. I am hoping that Islam has what I need, but if it's not, I'll keep looking. And yeah, maybe religion is just a "crutch for weak people" but I can't help what I believe.

SigmaChiCard · #10 06-10-2002, 01:02 PM

No, StraightBOS is right. If you look at the historical way that Muhammed and Jesus are portrayed....they are almost identical. If memory serves me well Muslims believe that Jesus came along as a prophet, then Muhammed came along as the last great prophet, and in a sense he was just repackaged because Muslims believe everything about Muhammed that Christians believe about Jesus....Of course he is physically an entirely different person, but conceptually they are the same when viewed objectively

Without meaning to tell you what to do....I think everyone should provide themselves with the strength they need and not rely on spiritualism to do that

SilverTurtle · #11 06-10-2002, 01:05 PM

Interesting topic SigmaChiCard!

I was raised Chrisitan ... attended a Baptist church the first 8-9 years of my life. Then our family switched to a Grace Brethren church, which is a protestant religion that follows the Bible closely, but isn't so literal (as many Baptist religions can be).

At college I attended a non-denomination protestant church that was not quite me, but it was okay and I met some good friends there eventually.

I am intrigued by a lot of different religions and how their stories and/or teachings overlap one another. I read a bit of Taoism, but don't consider it a religion. (In fact, it was only a philosophy before becoming a religion). I do consider it a good way to approach life. And I think it mimics the teachings of Jesus (or maybe he mimics the teaching of Tao). Live simply. Peacefully.

I do think that Jesus is another form of God (the "trinity), so when I/people worship him, they are worshiping God, and vice versa. In fact, sometimes I find God rather harsh in his judgements and regulations (Old Testament) versus Jesus' teachings of love (New Testament).

I think the most important thing from any religion is that you can apply its teachings to how you live your life. Which is why some people find solitude in Christianity, some in Judaism, etc.

I'm kind of rambling now, so I'll leave this link:

Yak Rider.com

It discusses a lot of religions (mostly Eastern) but in a manner that supports all of them and leaves conclusions up to the reader/viewer.

Eirene_DGP · #12 06-10-2002, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jonsagara

1) A mental crutch for those who need hope in their lives.
2) An ingenious mind control device created to control the masses. What better way is there to control people than to tell them that if they misbehave, they will burn in hell forever; or if they live a life full of virtue and piety, they will live in eternal bliss in the kingdom of God?

My $0.02.

As far as religion being a mental crutch for those who need hope in their lives, this can be a lot of things not just religion. There are a lot of Americans who use work, drugs, etc. as their crutch.

-SigmaChiCard, being that the bible was written long after the events in the bible actually occured there is a really good possibility that ALL of the stories are not completely accurate. As far as finding a religion, only you know what you want out of life and how you believe. Before I settled down in my faith, I researched Buddism, Islam, Judaism, and various denominations of Christianity. More so than the religion itself, the level of spirituality has to be there. Religion and spirituality are not the same.

jonsagara · #13 06-10-2002, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eirene_DGP

As far as religion being a mental crutch for those who need hope in their lives, this can be a lot of things not just religion. There are a lot of Americans who use work, drugs, etc. as their crutch.

I agree with what you're saying, but we're talking about religion here, not getting high.

swissmiss04 · #14 06-10-2002, 02:30 PM

Well SigmaChiCard, you'd be right except Muslims in no way believe Muhammed or Jesus to be the son of God or even an incarnation of God. To call Muhammed a "repackaged Jesus" is insensitive and shows your ignorance.

straightBOS · #15 06-10-2002, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jonsagara

1) A mental crutch for those who need hope in their lives.
2) An ingenious mind control device created to control the masses. What better way is there to control people than to tell them that if they misbehave, they will burn in hell forever; or if they live a life full of virtue and piety, they will live in eternal bliss in the kingdom of God?

It takes a far stretch of my imagination, and a leap of faith a little too large, for me to believe that three invisible men in the sky are in control of my life. On the other hand, I am glad for the time that I spent reading the Bible because, as has already been pointed out, it contains many valuable lessons regarding morality.

My $0.02.

Well, what do you call the universe?

We are controlled more by natural forces, than your interpretation of religion. Religion grew out of a curiosity in and an attempt to understanding the forces under whose control and will power we can never escape from.

Even if you do not believe in "religion", especially organized religion with codes, rites, prayers, etc. you are technically under the influence of religious forces everyday.