California's top court overturns gay marriage ban

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Rudey

Again, things that are natural. So is being born deaf. So is being born with 3 eyes instead of 2.

So:

Originally Posted by KSig RC

You're not really following the argument well.

Rudey and I were discussing the ethical basis for laws earlier in the conversation, and his comparison with eating your mate was a callback to that. He conflated two wholly different arguments - as did you - which is a legitimate logical fallacy.

Something can be "natural" and wrong - eating your mate is clearly wrong under any ethical standard, so we don't have to rely on a narrow, Christian standard (as we shouldn't, I feel, for lawmaking - apparently the Court agrees). My argument, in its entirety, is that laws banning gay marriage are generally based on religious views, and thus shouldn't hold up to judicial review.

Arguing against gay marriage because it is "unnatural" is demonstrably false - you can argue it is wrong for a litany of other (primarily religious) reasons, but "unnatural" simply doesn't work.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by a.e.B.O.T.

Did you choose to be straight? Was there a point during puberty where you made the active choice to choose men over woman?

For me it was an innate 'decision' - I just always liked boys.

Let me see if I can explain - the concept stems from the fact that God would not create a sinner on purpose, one from birth. The thought is that we are all born being good and righteous in the eyes of God, free from sin. During life, God gives us the chance to decide how we want to live. Whether we want to be good or bad, right or wrong. Since for some, homosexuality is a sin, then people can not be born gay. It is something they decided to do during their lives.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

For me it was an innate 'decision' - I just always liked boys.

Let me see if I can explain - the concept stems from the fact that God would not create a sinner on purpose, one from birth. The thought is that we are all born being good and righteous in the eyes of God, free from sin. During life, God gives us the chance to decide how we want to live. Whether we want to be good or bad, right or wrong. Since for some, homosexuality is a sin, then people can not be born gay. It is something they decided to do during their lives.

Unbelievable.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

Unbelievable.

Not really.

[JonoBN41]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Since for some, homosexuality is a sin, then people can not be born gay.

Who are these "some", these "some" people who are playing God and deciding what's a sin and what is not, and whether people are born gay or not? It sounds blasphemous and unscientific.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

For me it was an innate 'decision' - I just always liked boys.

Let me see if I can explain - the concept stems from the fact that God would not create a sinner on purpose, one from birth. The thought is that we are all born being good and righteous in the eyes of God, free from sin. During life, God gives us the chance to decide how we want to live. Whether we want to be good or bad, right or wrong. Since for some, homosexuality is a sin, then people can not be born gay. It is something they decided to do during their lives.

Well, Catholics believe that you born with sin, inherited from Adam and Eve, which is why they baptize you when you are an infant. The only human ever born without sin was Jesus.

Do you think you could make yourself like girls instead of boys? If you always inherently liked boys then that follows that you didn't have a choice.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Not really.

Really.

That's one of the most convoluted arguments I've ever heard.

For instance, some religions believe in the concept of original sin, meaning, as I understand it, that everyone is born a sinner -- not saintlike. Where does that leave them in this decision making process. Are they more likely to be gay because they're already sinners? Does it make the "choice" harder? Easier?

It seems to me that the problem in arguing anything on the basis of religious beliefs is that religions themselves are inconsistant -- not only between themselves and other religions, but often within their denominations.

That is to say nothing of individual beliefs. Not everyone takes everything their religion says as gospel (to coin a phrase -- pun intended).

So, who decides whether my religion is wrong if it doesn't agree with yours?

I'm pretty well convinced that there is no decision in whether someone is gay or not. If you want to convince me I'm wrong, quoting scriptures isn't the way to do it.

As someone noted above, the Bible was not written by God, but is a mortal intrepetation. Until God himself (or herself) tells me something in person, I'll reserve the right to be skeptical on some things.

ETA that I was writing while AGDee was posting above.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by JonoBN41

Who are these "some", these "some" people who are playing God and deciding what's a sin and what is not, and whether people are born gay or not? It sounds blasphemous and unscientific.

Ever been in the 'Bible belt' deep South? These people tend to be protestants who feel they are following the Word of God, not that they are playing God. The way they see it, people are not born bad, it is just their circumstances, life choices that make them that way. Once people realize that they are living a life against the will of God then they need to repent. Once you repent, then you are no longer to commit that particular sin, whether it was stealing, beating some one up, or homosexuality.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Well, Catholics believe that you born with sin, inherited from Adam and Eve, which is why they baptize you when you are an infant. The only human ever born without sin was Jesus.

Protestants don't believe this. We believe, for the most part, that as a young child, it is your parents responsibility to teach you about church and Jesus Christ. After going to Sunday school, church, and vacation Bible school that around the age 10 - 13, the kid would make the decision to commit his / her life to Christ, and thus decide to get baptized.

Do you think you could make yourself like girls instead of boys? If you always inherently liked boys then that follows that you didn't have a choice.

Me personally? NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! I love the boys. I love being the only girl in a relationship. Not to get too personal, but there are some things only a boy can provide me.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Ever been in the 'Bible belt' deep South? These people tend to be protestants who feel they are following the Word of God, not that they are playing God. The way they see it, people are not born bad, it is just their circumstances, life choices that make them that way. Once people realize that they are living a life against the will of God then they need to repent. Once you repent, then you are no longer to commit that particular sin, whether it was stealing, beating some one up, or homosexuality.

It's nice that they see it that way.

But "they" may or may not be right, and just because they believe they are doesn't make it so. They're not gods themselves, just simple humans like the rest of us. A choice or accident of where they live makes no difference at all in whether they see things correctly.

Consider this which always bothered me during my early upbringing in a mondo conservative, "Hell, fire and brimstone" Church of Christ In Christian Union. If God is all knowing, all loving, all forgiving -- how can He/She condem someone to eternal damnation in Hell? Why would we have to be "tested?" Especially, if we are born without sin? Why would He/She even offer the option?

I'm an ordained Elder in the Presbyterian Church and believe in God, but still have a lot of questions.

[nate2512]

I pose a question to everyone here who seems to make choices non religiously, how do you define your morals?

This is very relevant to the subject if you'll just answer.

[shinerbock]

I don't see what the controversy is. Many people believe that God creates people and they choose to act, either according to their urges or in spite of them. I actually think this argument is pretty legitimate.

[DeltAlum]

I think my morals are just fine, thanks.

But I could be wrong. I'm not a god, either.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Many people believe...

Sorry for the double post.

Shiner, believe me I understand what you're saying, but the fact that it's people who believe that gives me a problem.

People are not perfect.

What a person believes does not make it so.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by nate2512

I pose a question to everyone here who seems to make choices non religiously, how do you define your morals?

This is very relevant to the subject if you'll just answer.

My personal morals are based on my own religious belief system. Where we differ is in whether we think that we should force others to live by our religious beliefs. Judge not lest ye be judged and all that.

Morality and legality are not synonymous. There are a lot of things that I believe to be amoral but are legal. If we are going to base our laws on religious beliefs, then whose do we follow? If we pick one religion, then we are in violation of our Constitution. If we combine all of them, well, they will conflict. Do you want us to follow Catholic law and have birth control be illegal? Do you want us to follow the original Mormon law and have polygamy be legal? Who do we follow? Yours? Because you want us to? What if we force you to live by our religious beliefs? Would that be ok with you? Some could argue that since premarital sex is immoral, we are forcing them to live immorally by not allowing them to marry. Heterosexuals have the option of not having sex outside of marriage, but few exercise that option. Most choose to sin.

I happen to think that our government should only intervene to ban things that harm or infringe on others' civil rights. They have already way overstepped their bounds on several matters.

How morally I (or anybody else) choose to live is between me and Him (or them and their Higher Power).

Your entire argument seems to be based on "Well I don't like it". Nobody asked you to like it. Nobody asked you to marry someone of your own gender. It will not affect your life in any way if homosexuals choose to commit to lifelong partners in a legal (or religious, if their religion allows it) ceremony.