Sorority suspended for "Indian Party."

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Yes, I'm simply perpetuating the hierarchy. (vomits)

White people loan power to charges of racism because they're fearful of it. Anybody can use it, including whites.

Sure, power comes in all forms and can be used in different ways. We give people power all the time when we allow them to make us upset, paranoid, etc.

However, at a more aggregate and structural level, your post is equivalent to the phrase "race card" and the tendency for whites to be the only ones who can discuss race without being accused of "playing the race card." Ya know, because whites are so rational and objective whereas nonwhites are irrational and emotional about stuff. If whites don't let nonwhites "see them sweat" then those annoying nonwhites will stop being so consumed with race and go find a ball of yarn to play with--or something else to keep their race obsessed nonwhite selves occupied.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Sure, power comes in all forms and can be used in different ways. We give people power all the time when we allow them to make us upset, paranoid, etc.

However, at a more aggregate and structural level, your post is equivalent to the phrase "race card" and the tendency for whites to be the only ones who can discuss race without being accused of "playing the race card." Ya know, because whites are so rational and objective whereas nonwhites are irrational and emotional about stuff. If whites don't let nonwhites "see them sweat" then those annoying nonwhites will stop being so consumed with race and go find a ball of yarn to play with--or something else to keep their race obsessed nonwhite selves occupied.

I can't say I see it clearly. Feel free to make the connections for me.

The focus of my perspective isn't that we should strive to remove the power of minorities with the hope of removing their obsession with race. It is impossible to separate empowerment and the results of removing power in this context, but the desired result here is to end the white community's overreaction. The ultimate goal is not to disempower minorities, though that would be a likely result at some level.

Perhaps you'll say they're inseparable, but I'm not certain they are. I don't want to insulate the white community from the complaints of the irrational nonwhite community. I want the white community to think for themselves, and not merely enhance every complaint about race.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I can't say I see it clearly. Feel free to make the connections for me.

It is impossible to separate empowerment and the results of removing power in this context, but the desired result here is to end the white community's overreaction. The ultimate goal is not to disempower minorities, though that would be a likely result at some level.

No offense, but this is doubletalk. You just said "You know, when white people stop getting so defensive over other people getting somewhat offended, the people getting offended won't wield nearly as much power"and "White people loan power to charges of racism because they're fearful of it."

There is no distinguishing power from empowerment in this context if whites feel that they are "loaning power" and can buffer the effects if they "weren't so fearful." Mind you, beyond wanting to believe they are good people and free of prejudices, most whites aren't really fearful. But the "harmless yet terrified white people" approach is nothing new in this country, either. Nonwhites and whites who speak out against inequality generally aren't doing it because they need a hobby. They are generally doing it with hope for change, which is difficult if those in the majority of decision making power positions in this society (whites) take the approach that you're advocating.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

...The focus of my perspective isn't that we should strive to remove the power of minorities with the hope of removing their obsession with race......

Perhaps you'll say they're inseparable, but I'm not certain they are. I don't want to insulate the white community from the complaints of the irrational nonwhite community. I want the white community to think for themselves, and not merely enhance every complaint about race.

I hope you're being as sarcastic as I was and referencing the commonly held misconception rather than the reality.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

No offense, but this is doubletalk. You just said "You know, when white people stop getting so defensive over other people getting somewhat offended, the people getting offended won't wield nearly as much power"and "White people loan power to charges of racism because they're fearful of it."

There is no distinguishing power from empowerment in this context if whites feel that they are "loaning power" and can buffer the effects if they "weren't so fearful." Mind you, beyond wanting to believe they are good people and free of prejudices, most whites aren't really fearful. But the "harmless yet terrified white people" approach is nothing new in this country, either. Nonwhites and whites who speak out against inequality generally aren't doing it because they need a hobby. They are generally doing it with hope for change, which is difficult if those in the majority of decision making power positions in this society (whites) take the approach that you're advocating.



I hope you're being as sarcastic as I was and referencing the commonly held misconception rather than the reality.

Yeah it kind of is misleading. I think white people allow stigma to attach to charges of racism because we're so petrified of it. If you cut out the stigma, meaning if white people don't automatically start pointing the finger at each other when charges of racism arise, it is going to disempower people who uses those charges to their advantage, regardless of their race. Does this mean the power is on "loan" from the white community? Sure, partially. When we allow other people to control our actions, which is what I think we do at times, then we're empowering some other group. If we begin drawing our own conclusions and don't immediately start "eating our own" as soon as such charges arise, then we'll be taking some of that power back. That doesn't mean white people possess and distribute all power, but the reactions of the majority of this country (white people) certainly constitute a large reserve of power in this context.

But this aside, the goal, in my mind, is to empower white people to make decisions on their own. It isn't to disempower minority groups, though that will be the effect. I would just prefer that white people act as a better screen in determining what issues WE are going to care about.

I was simply speaking in your terms. I don't most think minorities are race-obsessed or irrational, though some certainly are. Whites too.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

disempower people who uses those charges to their advantage

heh

What about the OUR advantage of making this society as advanced in egalitarianism as it is technologically and economically advanced?

Originally Posted by shinerbock

But this aside, the goal, in my mind, is to empower white people to make decisions on their own.

Because Lord knows white people have always been too "harmless yet terrified" to do that.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I would just prefer that white people act as a better screen in determining what issues WE are going to care about.

heh

Awww...some whites are being "forced" to care about stuff and see beyond their comfort zones. God bless 'em and we thank them for the attention and power they've so nobly donated.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

heh



Because Lord knows white people have always been too "harmless yet terrified" to do that.

Irrelevant, but alright.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Awww...some whites are being "forced" to care about stuff and see beyond their comfort zones. God bless 'em and we thank them for the attention and power they've so nobly donated.

We're not being forced to do anything. We care about what we choose to care about. Minority groups certainly have power in this regard, but overreaction on our part absolutely enhances it.

I've made it clear I'm not trying to insulate the white community from the complaints of minority groups. But you, of course, already knew that.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Irrelevant, but alright.

Well, we all know that this country's history shows that whites have never felt empowered enough to make their own decisions. White people are afraid and haven't been able to TAKE CHARGE, right?

It's cool because we can keep placing many whites in 3 exciting categories:
1) confused victim ("eh...I don't know why they keep coming at us about this silly stuff...I'm nervous that I might offend someone all the time....")
2) unknowing perpetrator ("eh...I don't know why these themed parties are a bad thing...fun is fun...it doesn't bother me so that should mean something")
3) reluctant hero ("eh...I guess I'll listen to their concerns and try to help this time...I won't be so generous next time")

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

We care about what we choose to care about.

heh

As do all humans. However, I can't help but hear the "Heman" theme everytime you post.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Minority groups certainly have power in this regard, but overreaction on our part absolutely enhances it.

Overreaction = listening to concerns and finding ways to educate the masses and impliment changes if there is a perceived need

OR

Overreaction = masses of white people jumping off of buildings, developing nervous disorders, and rioting the streets everytime there is a discussion of race or a concern of inequality

Which one?

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I've made it clear I'm not trying to insulate the white community from the complaints of minority groups. But you, of course, already knew that.

Not really. My responses aren't about you. They are about what's embedded in positions like the one you're taking. Everything you've said has been said by whites for decades. It just changes format as society's expectations of equality shift.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Well, we all know that this country's history shows that whites have never felt empowered enough to make their own decisions. White people are afraid and haven't been able to TAKE CHARGE, right?

It's cool because we can keep placing many whites in 3 exciting categories:
1) confused victim ("eh...I don't know why they keep coming at us about this silly stuff...I'm nervous that I might offend someone all the time....")
2) unknowing perpetrator ("eh...I don't know why these themed parties are a bad thing...fun is fun...it doesn't bother me so that should mean something")
3) reluctant hero ("eh...I guess I'll listen to their concerns and try to help this time...I won't be so generous next time")

White people have always been able to take charge on a host of things. I don't think they are in this context, however. Seems simple enough.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

heh

As do all humans. However, I can't help but hear the "Heman" theme everytime you post.



Overreaction = listening to concerns and finding ways to educate the masses and impliment changes if there is a perceived need

OR

Overreaction = masses of white people jumping off of buildings, developing nervous disorders, and rioting the streets everytime there is a discussion of race or a concern of inequality

Which one?




Not really. My responses aren't about you. They are about what's embedded in positions like the one you're taking. Everything you've said has been said by whites for decades. It just changes format as society's expectations of equality shift.

Clearly I'm talking about white people who immediately start pointing at other white people when charges of racism, or discussions of race, arise. I want white people to do analysis and come to conclusions. That doesn't mean I want them to stop responding to minority concerns, plenty of which are incredibly valid. Others, IMO, not so much. We all know most white people get incredibly uncomfortable with discussions about race, at least when those discussions involve nonwhite people. This fear/nervousness/whatever reminds me of people's fear of public speaking, in that they'll literally do anything to avoid the discomfort.

I'd like to know what positions are embedded in mine. I'm certain some are, as I'm certain your opinions and thought processes have been impacted similarly. Clearly I don't think white people are the gate keepers of power, so what else ?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

MysticCat, while I respect your views, I have to point out that part of the reason early Christians put their holidays at the same time as major pagan holidays (Christmas and Easter are just two notable examples) was not just to "replace" pagan holidays but to encourage observance by rural/pagan people who might not really know all the details of theology. The Church (and here I'm speaking primarily of the Catholic Church) has had a long tradition in the history of its missions and proselytization that allows new Catholics, former practitioners of other religions, to practice their old rites, but usually under a Christian guise. . . . Of course Protestants and some Catholics might be offended by this today, but the historical record stands.

Oh, I wouldn't disagree at all -- I just wasn't going into that much detail.

The Celtic Christians referred to this as "baptizing" pagan practices.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Your "personally" doesn't really matter, though.

No other racial and ethnic minority group would feel honored if there were caricatures of them. The "red sambo" mascot from the Washington Redskins would've been axed from the jump.

http://www.aics.org/mascot/mascot.html
http://www.bluecorncomics.com/wahoo.htm

Some mascots and "tributes" are perceived as less offensive because Native Americans actually participate in them directly. However, only until Native Americans actually feel honored instead of mocked by their representation can anyone legitimately say they should feel honored.

This distinction is unimportant.

There have always been offensive images targeting blacks that not every black person finds offensive or gives a darn enough to speak out against. As long as there's more than one person who feels a certain way, there's a reason to speak out and they are within their right to say that "we" are offended. "We," to everyone with common sense, means that it is potentially degrading in general even if every PERSON within that group doesn't feel offended or doesn't agree that it should be addressed.

None of this means that a group of girls playing Indian dress up at a college party should get in trouble. If that offends people, tough.

[33girl]

Who are these dorks who need an excuse or a costume to get drunk and/or party? Cinco de Mayo, Mardi Gras, New Year's Eve, St Patrick's Day - all for amateurs and all days which I usually stay home or go someplace really low key because they're populated with idiots who don't know how to hold their alcohol.

FWIW, I can totally see any of my friends going as Liesl & Rolf to a Halloween party, and not a single person being offended by it. That's our sense of humor. Throwing up a heil or two is staying in character, not being anti-Semitic. However, if you start saying things like "Jews are cheap" and the like, then you need to STFU - it's like the Seinfeld where Tim Watley converted to Judaism so he could tell Jewish jokes.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

White people have always been able to take charge on a host of things. I don't think they are in this context, however. Seems simple enough.

It isn't simple enough. You're the one who made this about "white people."

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I'd like to know what positions are embedded in mine.

I already told you.