Politics 2008:The Caucuses and The Dem/Rep Conventions

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by KAPital PHINUst

For the record, RON PAUL HAS NOT DROPPED OUT!!!!

The article in question has no real basis in fact for its story, and is interpreted by some as an attempt on ABC's part to discourage delegates to vote for him at Convention, as well as discourage voters in remaining primary states.

Actual news on his campaign status can ONLY be found at ronpaul2008.com (and after a brief review of the site, nowhere is there any mention of Ron Paul conceding the presidential race or dropping out).

Conclusion: ABC News' story is bogus--and could be grounds for a lawsuit for printing false/misleading information.

take your head out of the sand.

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

take your head out of the sand.

See post #254 of this thread, and I'll (for now) leave it at that--after all, we don't want any circular arguments 'n whatnot.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

Are you kiddding? Paper ballots can be shredded, burned, tossed into the trash, etc. With electronic ballots there IS an audit trail somewhere on the computer. And there is an audit trail if the data is manipulated.

When they were testing new ballots for our county my favorite of the machines was one that you entered electronically and then it printed your results twice. One receipt was for you, one was a backup copy sent to a locked box in case of recounts. It was perfect. They went with a touch screen that still has paper back up, but we don't get a copy, we drop the printout in the locked box ourselves.

[mccoyred]

Originally Posted by ladygreek

Are you kiddding? Paper ballots can be shredded, burned, tossed into the trash, etc. With electronic ballots there IS an audit trail somewhere on the computer. And there is an audit trail if the data is manipulated.

Soror, you know and I know but we cannot assume that just because someone is on the Internet regularly that they have CLUE about technology...*sigh*

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by mccoyred

Soror, you know and I know but we cannot assume that just because someone is on the Internet regularly that they have CLUE about technology...*sigh*

Good point.

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by KAPital PHINUst

Because with technology data can be more easily manipulated than with paper ballots and be less likely to leave an audit trail. I actually saw video of a congressional testimony for an electronic ballot contracting company where the contractor was being asked questions on whether the data could be manipulated and he was saying yes it could.

I wouldn't be so quick to give credence to electronic ballots if I were you.

I'll leave you all with this quote:

"Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." - Joseph Stalin.

Found the clip. Testimony that votes CAN be rigged through the use of software.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEzY2tnwExs

ETA: This tactic was attempted to throw the Ohio gubernatorial election in 2006 in favor of Ken Blackwell. The only reason why it backfired was that the votes was rigged to throw the election favor of Blackwell by a certain percentage, but the percentage of voters voting for Strickland exceeded that, so the rigging effort was made worthless.

[mccoyred]

Originally Posted by KAPital PHINUst

Found the clip. Testimony that votes CAN be rigged through the use of software.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEzY2tnwExs

ETA: This tactic was attempted to throw the Ohio gubernatorial election in 2006 in favor of Ken Blackwell. The only reason why it backfired was that the votes was rigged to throw the election favor of Blackwell by a certain percentage, but the percentage of voters voting for Strickland exceeded that, so the rigging effort was made worthless.

Blackwell gave Bush Ohio in 2004 so maybe they used the same tactics???


ANY software can be manipulated but there is ALWAYS an audit trail. But any PAPER can be manipulated dare we forget the 'hanging chads' in 2000 as well...

[SummerChild]

What does everyone think of the recent comments made by Geraldine Ferraro, Hillary Clinton supporter and former VP Candidate?

I am proud that our International President is on the case rebuking such divisive and silly comments (although we are not a partisan org and do not endorse any candidate).

I will be so glad when this campaign is over. Hillary and her cronies are getting so dirty that it's just becoming unbearable. Just stick to the issues and stop making stupid and offensive comments Hillary and Co.


Meanwhile, the middle income report? came out today and, for you John McCain fans, Barack and Hillary received As for their voting record helping the middle class but John - well he just received an INCOMPLETE b/c he did not even vote enough on these matters to be graded! Hmph, I guess he didn't think that the issues were important. That's telling.

The middle class MUST take a stand with this election or else, I fear that the unemployment rate will continue to go up and the crime along with it. It is getting really bad out here. In my community, which is upscale, we are having burglaries and auto thefts left and right - in the middle of the day. People are hungry and are NOT going to starve. And now I have to go down to the police station and get that background check for the firearm license - the license that I never wanted. But they are coming into people's houses - while they are there!

We have to make a change in November b/c it is getting bad out here you guys! Please vote for SOMEBODY that is really going to do something about unemployment, who is going to bring jobs back to the U.S., etc.

Take a stand in November!

ETA: To those voting Republican, why? Are you happy with the state of the country? Is this just a bad time and you believe that another Republican will do better than GW? Is trickle down theory going to finally work?

SC

[ladygreek]

^^^^As an Independent, I will not engage in a discussion of Dems v. Repubs and which is worse (notice I did not say better.)

[DSTCHAOS]

*channeling DJ Khaled*

INDEPENDENTS!

WE THE BEST!

WHO?

WE!

WE THE BEST!

[TonyB06]

Originally Posted by SummerChild

What does everyone think of the recent comments made by Geraldine Ferraro, Hillary Clinton supporter and former VP Candidate?

I am proud that our International President is on the case rebuking such divisive and silly comments (although we are not a partisan org and do not endorse any candidate).

I will be so glad when this campaign is over. Hillary and her cronies are getting so dirty that it's just becoming unbearable. Just stick to the issues and stop making stupid and offensive comments Hillary and Co.


Meanwhile, the middle income report? came out today and, for you John McCain fans, Barack and Hillary received As for their voting record helping the middle class but John - well he just received an INCOMPLETE b/c he did not even vote enough on these matters to be graded! Hmph, I guess he didn't think that the issues were important. That's telling.

The middle class MUST take a stand with this election or else, I fear that the unemployment rate will continue to go up and the crime along with it. It is getting really bad out here. In my community, which is upscale, we are having burglaries and auto thefts left and right - in the middle of the day. People are hungry and are NOT going to starve. And now I have to go down to the police station and get that background check for the firearm license - the license that I never wanted. But they are coming into people's houses - while they are there!

We have to make a change in November b/c it is getting bad out here you guys! Please vote for SOMEBODY that is really going to do something about unemployment, who is going to bring jobs back to the U.S., etc.

Take a stand in November!

ETA: To those voting Republican, why? Are you happy with the state of the country? Is this just a bad time and you believe that another Republican will do better than GW? Is trickle down theory going to finally work?

SC

I think Ferraro's comments reflect the frustration of the Clinton campaign. They never planned to be in a primary fight this late in the season -- and their "strategy" of late seems to show this.

These kinds of remarks are typical of campaign minions and lower level functionaries, however, ...they do the "dirty work," of allegation and innuendo, hoping it will sway the simple-minded to their cause. I think in the longer term, HRC will be hurt (in the eyes of the superdelegates) by not making a more forceful denunciation of Ferraro's remarks than she's done to date.

I'm curious to see how the DNC will repair this delegate fight with Michigan/Florida. ...politically, it would seem they'd split the delegates down the middle and save the DNC or the states the $30 million it would cost for the do-over.

[SummerChild]

TonyB,

I think that the solution is really very straightforward - don't change the rules of the game midstream. Also, I think that splitting the delegates may be giving one candidate more than the candidate deserves.

If Michigan and Florida agreed to operate in this manner, then I think that is that really. I think that the elected officials of Michigan and Florida should pay for their decision-making in November and that the rule that none of the delegates should count should stand. It is a shame to disenfranchise the people of Michigan and Florida in this way. This is a matter for their state legislatures to answer for, I think. I do not agree to change the rules midstream b/c the election turned out to be such an interesting and still unsettled matter. Now, they want a do-over?

The people of Michigan and Florida need to take it up with the people that made those decisions in their states. Those people postured and acted childish and now they are living to regret their decision. It is no different to me than a child that postures and throws a temper tantrum and then seeks to undo the act.

It would not set a good precedent for future elections. Why wouldn't any other state simply posture and then later decide that they want to do something else and all should be forgotten? What's going to happen with the next presidential election if we allow a do-over this time?

I think that they should just vote in November with everyone else at this point.

SC

Originally Posted by TonyB06

I think Ferraro's comments reflect the frustration of the Clinton campaign. They never planned to be in a primary fight this late in the season -- and their "strategy" of late seems to show this.

These kinds of remarks are typical of campaign minions and lower level functionaries, however, ...they do the "dirty work," of allegation and innuendo, hoping it will sway the simple-minded to their cause. I think in the longer term, HRC will be hurt (in the eyes of the superdelegates) by not making a more forceful denunciation of Ferraro's remarks than she's done to date.

I'm curious to see how the DNC will repair this delegate fight with Michigan/Florida. ...politically, it would seem they'd split the delegates down the middle and save the DNC or the states the $30 million it would cost for the do-over.

[TonyB06]

Originally Posted by SummerChild

TonyB,

I think that the solution is really very straightforward - don't change the rules of the game midstream. Also, I think that splitting the delegates may be giving one candidate more than the candidate deserves.

If Michigan and Florida agreed to operate in this manner, then I think that is that really. I think that the elected officials of Michigan and Florida should pay for their decision-making in November and that the rule that none of the delegates should count should stand. It is a shame to disenfranchise the people of Michigan and Florida in this way. This is a matter for their state legislatures to answer for, I think. I do not agree to change the rules midstream b/c the election turned out to be such an interesting and still unsettled matter. Now, they want a do-over?

The people of Michigan and Florida need to take it up with the people that made those decisions in their states. Those people postured and acted childish and now they are living to regret their decision. It is no different to me than a child that postures and throws a temper tantrum and then seeks to undo the act.

It would not set a good precedent for future elections. Why wouldn't any other state simply posture and then later decide that they want to do something else and all should be forgotten? What's going to happen with the next presidential election if we allow a do-over this time?

I think that they should just vote in November with everyone else at this point.

SC

IMO, there is very little that is "straightforward" about politics at this level. Perception always plays a role.

As I recall Obama, Clinton and Edwards all pledged to not campaign or appear on the ballots of Mich/Fla because they "jumped ahead." at the last minute HRC put her name on either the FLa or Mich ballot ....so you might wonder why this hasn't been hit on as a campaign issue by the Obama campaign.

Secondly, these were state party decisions, supported by the legislatures, I think, and HRC's albeit "self-serving" argument is that the people, separate from the party, are being disenfranchised. Of course, it's postering, but there is a deeper point in all of this. National CNN Columnist (and Bruh) Roland Martin suggests both states be set aside and voters of those states take it out on their elected officials who made this decision.

at the end of the day some political solution is going to be reached, becuase those are heavily populated states and the DNC doesn't want "dissafection" to carry over into the fall campaign.

I'd guess Obama would like the situation to remain static, but I don't think that'll be a viable posistion to hold once an idea emerges that gains momentum.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by TonyB06

IMO, there is very little that is "straightforward" about politics at this level. Perception always plays a role.

As I recall Obama, Clinton and Edwards all pledged to not campaign or appear on the ballots of Mich/Fla because they "jumped ahead." at the last minute HRC put her name on either the FLa or Mich ballot ....so you might wonder why this hasn't been hit on as a campaign issue by the Obama campaign.

Secondly, these were state party decisions, supported by the legislatures, I think, and HRC's albeit "self-serving" argument is that the people, separate from the party, are being disenfranchised. Of course, it's postering, but there is a deeper point in all of this. National CNN Columnist (and Bruh) Roland Martin suggests both states be set aside and voters of those states take it out on their elected officials who made this decision.

at the end of the day some political solution is going to be reached, becuase those are heavily populated states and the DNC doesn't want "dissafection" to carry over into the fall campaign.

I'd guess Obama would like the situation to remain static, but I don't think that'll be a viable posistion to hold once an idea emerges that gains momentum.

Re: the names

All candidates names were originally on the ballots. Due to Florida's rules no candidate could pull his or her name off of the ballot. All candidate's names were on Florida's ballot.

Obama and Edwards pulled their names off of the Michigan ballot. Clinton did not but it "didn't matter" at the time since the vote's "didn't count." That's her story and she's sticking ... well she's saying they SHOULD count now.

[Ten/Four]

Originally Posted by TonyB06

I think Ferraro's comments reflect the frustration of the Clinton campaign. They never planned to be in a primary fight this late in the season -- and their "strategy" of late seems to show this.

These kinds of remarks are typical of campaign minions and lower level functionaries, however, ...they do the "dirty work," of allegation and innuendo, hoping it will sway the simple-minded to their cause. I think in the longer term, HRC will be hurt (in the eyes of the superdelegates) by not making a more forceful denunciation of Ferraro's remarks than she's done to date.

I'm curious to see how the DNC will repair this delegate fight with Michigan/Florida. ...politically, it would seem they'd split the delegates down the middle and save the DNC or the states the $30 million it would cost for the do-over.

You would think Clinton would tell everyone in her camp to just shut up. Especially since she's floating the idea of a Clinton/Obama ticket. Although we know that's not going to happen.

The DNC should not redo the Michigan and Florida votes. Those states knew the rules when they voted. Are the number of delegates from these states counted in the total needed to secure the nomination? If they are factored in the total, those states should be subtracted. Short of redoing the election, there's no way to know who really would've won since the candidates weren't allowed to campaign there.