Hazing creates a sense of unity

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

Well first of all, let's define hazing (for lack of a better word).

I am talking, for example, about having pledges clean up the house early on a Saturday morning in a very short (but not impossible) amount of time. What's the catch? There isn't one. They're not drunk, no one is hitting them, and they don't have to use their toothbrushes. Hell, they don't have HAVE to do it at all, but they understand they will be cut if they don't. Pledging is optional, remember? The thing is, this "hazing" is purposeful and the pledges know that.

No one is in danger and no one is being degraded. If a pledge has a problem with some simple cleaning, then that's not the only problem he has, and he's not someone my chapter wants to be affiliated with. Believe it or not, there will be other times in life when you CHOOSE to do things you don't want to do because you are attracted to the reward. You probably don't want to study for your biology exam, but you want to get into med school, so you study hard and do well. There is no such thing as free lunch, because if there were such a thing, none of us would be in school. The pledge process is not unlike school. You (should have to) work hard to get where you want to be (whether that is being an active member of your GLO or having the job of your dreams).

Now, if you class my example with being beaten half to death with a paddle, then I really do not know what to tell you. If your friends feel resentful towards certain actives, they probably did a lot more than made the pledges clean and I'm just as much against that as the rest of you guys are.

While many if not all agree with you on G C, the National HQs will disagree along with the many states who have enacted laws against hazing brought on by some of the things that you mentioned and still go on today.

Starting a local many years ago, we never thought cleaning common areas of the house and line ups were hazing and that is all we did.

Today that has all changed. We did it on and by ourselves.

[sasquatch]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

While many if not all agree with you on G C, the National HQs will disagree along with the many states who have enacted laws against hazing brought on by some of the things that you mentioned and still go on today.

Starting a local many years ago, we never thought cleaning common areas of the house and line ups were hazing and that is all we did.

Today that has all changed. We did it on and by ourselves.

I am well aware that nationals would consider that hazing...

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

Well first of all, let's define hazing (for lack of a better word).

I am talking, for example, about having pledges clean up the house early on a Saturday morning in a very short (but not impossible) amount of time. What's the catch? There isn't one. They're not drunk, no one is hitting them, and they don't have to use their toothbrushes. Hell, they don't have HAVE to do it at all, but they understand they will be cut if they don't. Pledging is optional, remember? The thing is, this "hazing" is purposeful and the pledges know that.

No one is in danger and no one is being degraded. If a pledge has a problem with some simple cleaning, then that's not the only problem he has, and he's not someone my chapter wants to be affiliated with. Believe it or not, there will be other times in life when you CHOOSE to do things you don't want to do because you are attracted to the reward. You probably don't want to study for your biology exam, but you want to get into med school, so you study hard and do well. There is no such thing as free lunch, because if there were such a thing, none of us would be in school. The pledge process is not unlike school. You (should have to) work hard to get where you want to be (whether that is being an active member of your GLO or having the job of your dreams).

Now, if you class my example with being beaten half to death with a paddle, then I really do not know what to tell you. If your friends feel resentful toward certain actives, they probably did a lot more than made the pledges clean and I'm just as much against that as the rest of you guys are.

Sasquatch;
While I can see that you are a new member of GC (welcome), I do not know how long you may have be lurking or reviewing threads.

I also see that just about all of your postings have been in RM area. I do hope that you took some time to read the threads here.

One of the major flash points we have here is when "we" define hazing.
And from my POV and experience, that in truth makes no difference in the world we live in and operate in.
Why?
Because as GLO's, and for that matter any living or social group on a given campus, have to live and operate under the rules given to us. That is any combination of school, local, State, Federal, and Organizational rules, policies and laws.

And as one can see either by reading the threads here or reading the papers, we get into trouble when we decide what we wish to follow or how we are going to interpret them.

And as we have seen all too often, not all of the "rules" are very well written and are different all over the place.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

And you know this first hand?

Because I sure do have tons of evidence that proves otherwise.

And your evidence is?
And can we find proof in it?

[DSTCHAOS]

Hazing actually does unify a lot of chapters because the actives have to spend a substantial amount of time with the new members for most of the activities. It also makes many new members anxious to be able to mingle with the actives after they complete their rites of passage.

This isn't an either/or discussion. Despite the legal definition of hazing that tries to cover it all, we all know that there are a range of new member activities and processes that fall under hazing. And not everyone who opposes hazing will oppose every activity that falls under "hazing." Some are laughable.

Hazing divides some chapters and hazing divides some new member classes. Hazing unites many chapters and hazing unites many member classes. This will be based on the people and activities involved, as well as how both sides behave and feel about the other side and the "hazing" activities.

The evidence of this would be a matter of witnessing various chapters' activities and experiences. There will always be variance because there are thousands upon thousands of fraternity and sorority chapters in the world.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Hazing actually does unify a lot of chapters because the actives have to spend a substantial amount of time with the new members for most of the activities. It also makes many new members anxious to be able to mingle with the actives after they complete their rites of passage.

This isn't an either/or discussion. Despite the legal definition of hazing that tries to cover it all, we all know that there are a range of new member activities and processes that fall under hazing. And not everyone who opposes hazing will oppose every activity that falls under "hazing." Some are laughable.

Hazing divides some chapters and hazing divides some new member classes. Hazing unites many chapters and hazing unites many member classes. This will be based on the people and activities involved, as well as how both sides behave and feel about the other side and the "hazing" activities.

The evidence of this would be a matter of witnessing various chapters' activities and experiences. There will always be variance because there are thousands upon thousands of fraternity and sorority chapters in the world.

A most outstanding post and thank you!

It speaks a lot of truths about while in the guise of hazing, it really isn't.

The explanation of working with the new associates or pledges is the main key here, not just physical or mental hazing.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Hazing actually does unify a lot of chapters because the actives have to spend a substantial amount of time with the new members for most of the activities. It also makes many new members anxious to be able to mingle with the actives after they complete their rites of passage.

This isn't an either/or discussion. Despite the legal definition of hazing that tries to cover it all, we all know that there are a range of new member activities and processes that fall under hazing. And not everyone who opposes hazing will oppose every activity that falls under "hazing." Some are laughable.

Hazing divides some chapters and hazing divides some new member classes. Hazing unites many chapters and hazing unites many member classes. This will be based on the people and activities involved, as well as how both sides behave and feel about the other side and the "hazing" activities.

The evidence of this would be a matter of witnessing various chapters' activities and experiences. There will always be variance because there are thousands upon thousands of fraternity and sorority chapters in the world.

This should be the first post in every singe thread here on out created bout hazing.

Then said threads should be closed.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by macallan25

This should be the first post in every singe thread here on out created bout hazing.

Then said threads should be closed.

Yeah these threads are redundant from start to finish.

[Texan85]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Do you think that hazing is becoming frowned upon more because it's culturally obsolute or because it's too expensive in terms of insurance, lawsuits, etc. for our respective organizations to allow it to continue?

It doesn't seem like many organizations placed a very high priority on hazing when it was at its zenith 20+ years ago. I don't mean to be cynical, but could it be that the only reason we're even talking about this has nothing to do with the human tragedy, the danger, etc. and everything to do with the financial survival or our respective institutions?

If I had to pick, it would be the latter. I think that because of all of the no hazing policies by GHQ, and by the campus that you are at makes it an unfavorable practice.

Second to that I have been told hazing comes from post WWII and the marines and soldiers coming back on the GI Bill, so I think its starting to take root in the new milenium that it is just an archaic practice.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Texan85

Second to that I have been told hazing comes from post WWII and the marines and soldiers coming back on the GI Bill, so I think its starting to take root in the new milenium that it is just an archaic practice.

That certainly contributed to a new rise in hazing, but hazing has been around a lot longer than that.

[Tom Earp]

I beleive hazing was in practice from the inseption of GLOs and is not based on the men/women who returned from WWII. They had seen enough hurt/blood shed and I am sure were not up to having to be hazed by a group of kids who did not fight in this war.

I know that at the two schools I attended, the men on GI Bill help build dorms at one school and the stadium at the other one. Doesn't sound like hazing would come from them.

When West Point was founded, the new plebes had to ride cannon barrels with a team of horses running with the cassions.

Beating, making a new member drink in excess is a way to make a stronger member of any GLO would steer me away from them.

I do not think I would find any glee in those or any other forms of degredation appealing.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Texan85

Second to that I have been told hazing comes from post WWII and the marines and soldiers coming back on the GI Bill, so I think its starting to take root in the new milenium that it is just an archaic practice.

I doubt that.

Go to your next convention and ask one of the grey-hairs that question. I don't know one way or the other, but I would have to assume that hazing has been around a long, long time.

My fraternity was founded in 1869, essentially in response to (and against) the hazing and other morally objectionable practices which were being perpetrated by the forerunner organization of ATO. Hazing was alive and well in 1869. It has deep roots in the american educational system. I have no reason to believe it slackened off on its own between 1869 and WWII.

[delicateshades]

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[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by delicateshades

hazing works. it is not fun for the pledges at all, and while they're in "i-week", "hell week", or whatever period in which hazing occurs, they do not realize how well hazing actually does work. when you make a pledge go through hell, whatever ''hell'' may be, all the pledge has is his pledge bro's. hazing is not designed to be mean to new members for fun, it is designed to unite pledge bro's. it is designed for them to realize that no matter how $hitty a situation can get, they will always have each other. hazing works.

granted, i have heard methods of strongly uniting men together in brotherly bonds through non-hazing activities. however, i strongly believe that men unite stronger in worse situations.

Interesting first post. Anyway, why not PLEDGE instead of haze?

Originally Posted by delicateshades

hazing works. it is not fun for the pledges at all, and while they're in "i-week", "hell week", or whatever period in which hazing occurs, they do not realize how well hazing actually does work. when you make a pledge go through hell, whatever ''hell'' may be, all the pledge has is his pledge bro's. hazing is not designed to be mean to new members for fun, it is designed to unite pledge bro's. it is designed for them to realize that no matter how $hitty a situation can get, they will always have each other. hazing works.

granted, i have heard methods of strongly uniting men together in brotherly bonds through non-hazing activities. however, i strongly believe that men unite stronger in worse situations.

And what organization are you a member of?

I think it's funny how your post promotes hazing and you say that it works, yet you can't even type "shitty" in its full form. If you're gonna cuss, you may as well spell it out.

SHITTY.