Alpha Phi dies of alcohol poisioning at SDSU

[33girl]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

If some kids in your son or daughter's high school were killed because they got into a car with a driver who'd been drinking, would you think it appropriate or inappropriate to use that event as an opportunity to talk with your own kid about drinking and driving?

I'd let them mourn their friends. I'd let them see how upset their friends' parents and family were. That should be ample "opportunity."

Seriously, if my parents had ever said to me (because that situation did occur) "now don't drink and drive because you might end up dead like Rob did since he got in Steve's car" I probably would have smacked them across the face. They told me not to drink and drive because I could get myself or others killed. They didn't need to use another human being or his/her misfortune to do that. If parents can't convey the gravity of the situation to their kids on its own merits, they're pathetic.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by 33girl

The point is that there was NO proof (none has been offered so far) that she was a regular or even casual cocaine user.

I can see how you would think it diminished her memory to talk about her so statistically, but what do you suppose the chances really are that A) this was her first time using B) the chapter was unaware that any members were using drugs C) that the people who were with her at the end of the night had no idea she was "wasted"?

If the changes of A, B or C are anything other than 100%, then the possibility exists that someone could have intervened in this case and that other people can learn that even though it may make you seem like a dork, keeping your friends from using or getting them help if they do might save their lives.

I always want that to be the focus of risk management, rather than dollar value liability that we ultimately get hung up on. You want to keep people from killing themselves or others; the financial risk is very real and sometimes the only thing to convince more libertarian members, but first, take care of your sisters, brothers, friends, and self so that nobody dies before he or she has to.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

I can see how you would think it diminished her memory to talk about her so statistically, but what do you suppose the chances really are that A) this was her first time using B) the chapter was unaware that any members were using drugs C) that the people who were with her at the end of the night had no idea she was "wasted"?

If the changes of A, B or C are anything other than 100%, then the possibility exists that someone could have intervened in this case and that other people can learn that even though it may make you seem like a dork, keeping your friends from using or getting them help if they do might save their lives.

I always want that to be the focus of risk management, rather than dollar value liability that we ultimately get hung up on. You want to keep people from killing themselves or others; the financial risk is very real and sometimes the only thing to convince more libertarian members, but first, take care of your sisters, brothers, and friends, and self so that you don't die before you have to.

Amen.

This is the risk management forum, not the honor the memories of the dead people who did stupid things forum. If this is common at SDSU, then perhaps national organizations might want to start considering closing chapters. The more common the knowledge that drugs like cocaine are part of the greek party scene out there, the more likely this sort of thing is to come back on an organization.

[cuteASAbug]

Alphagamuga, do you know what members of your chapter smoke weed, drop e, snort, etc.? Do you know which ones smoke? Do you know which ones drink underage? Do you know when each one of them is doing each one of those things? Do you really think that it's possible for girls in a sorority, especially in a medium-large sized chapter to know this information about each of their members? I completely agree with you that risk management should be about preventing deaths, but sometimes there is only so much information that you can know about a member, especially if she goes out of her way to hide things from the chapter, and I don't know about you, but I joined a sorority to have 40 sisters, not 40 policemen.

[Drolefille]

IMO, Risk Management isn't just about covering our asses. Yes, this chapter could potentially have dropped her and saved themselves this news coverage. That would NOT have helped the member.

And seeing how SDSU is well known for their drug and alcohol problems, Risk Management isn't something to address with one individual member; it sounds like the chapters, and more importantly the university need to be getting involved.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by cuteASAbug

Alphagamuga, do you know what members of your chapter smoke weed, drop e, snort, etc.? Do you know which ones smoke? Do you know which ones drink underage? Do you know when each one of them is doing each one of those things? Do you really think that it's possible for girls in a sorority, especially in a medium-large sized chapter to know this information about each of their members? I completely agree with you that risk management should be about preventing deaths, but sometimes there is only so much information that you can know about a member, especially if she goes out of her way to hide things from the chapter, and I don't know about you, but I joined a sorority to have 40 sisters, not 40 policemen.

Nobody wants a policeman around until you're about to be the victim a crime and then you're probably really happy to see him. I think the same is drug for risk management. It's troublesome and invasive until a member dies or is seriously injured in a manner related to risk management, and then everybody wishes they'd done something differently.

I'm sure I wouldn't have appreciated a lot of drug and alcohol related investigations in my chapter when I was in college,* and I'm sure my perspective is different because I'm long out of college and am almost realistically old enough to have a kid in college.

But it seems to me that we do know when people are doing dangerous stuff, maybe not every sister in a chapters if the chapter is really big, but if someone has a problem it can be obvious at events. It will often be visible to a person's roommates or their friends. I think it's pretty rare that people so effectively hide their drug use or alcohol abuse that no one in the chapter knows, even without an investigation.

I don't think the choice is police state vs. free for all.

*although I don't really think drugs were a big problem in our chapter. It doesn't really matter though. I know we had underage drinking and people who made bad decisions about drinking and driving (or more exactly riding with others who had been drinking) when they were out not at GLO events.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

IMO, Risk Management isn't just about covering our asses. Yes, this chapter could potentially have dropped her and saved themselves this news coverage. That would NOT have helped the member.

And seeing how SDSU is well known for their drug and alcohol problems, Risk Management isn't something to address with one individual member; it sounds like the chapters, and more importantly the university need to be getting involved.

I agree completely about the first part, and I don't know anything about SDSU, but what you've said would seem to be true almost everyplace.

[SWTXBelle]

AND . . . it is possible her sisters/friends/people she was around only saw that Jenny was perhaps drunk - they may very well had had no idea that she was in danger of DYING from alcohol poisoning along with the coke.
At this point, it is a tragedy, and the important thing is to get the word about drinking too much, the dangers of coke, and mixing the two. I would hope the Greek and college community would take this opportunity to schedule programming to do all they can to educate students to prevent it from happening again. If there is a signficant drug culture on the campus, this can be a wake-up call.
I am so sorry for the loss of a sister, and for the grief her parents friends and family must feel. It's just terrible, and I hope that something good can come of this terrible event.

[bejazd]

Yes, SDSU has a reputation for being a party school. But these kinds of issues- i.e. binge drinking and recreational drug use can start in middle school! Keep in mind that SDSU has 30K students. It's a small city.
You can go there and get a great education and go off and lead a great life, or you can party until you flunk out and go bag groceries. I've seen people do both!

I hope what the greek community does with this is to develop more alternative social activities so new members can get to their first formal and not feel like it wouldn't be a formal without alcohol and..whatever. But it's a tough sell to get young people to realize they can have a great social life and be responsible. Grad Nite at my son's HS was cancelled this year because not enough kids signed up...and the ASB leadership set the tone when they announced they would not go because it was alcohol free. How sad is that?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Alphagamuga

I agree completely about the first part, and I don't know anything about SDSU, but what you've said would seem to be true almost everyplace.

I only know what I've heard on GC and everyone SDSU student has said they're a drug and party school. I mention it because on my campus I'm sure there were drugs, but my chapter would have dealt with it if a member had had problems. (And no, booting her out would not be the first reaction) But if it's so pervasive, there's no way that the chapter, made of members possibly just as into the drugs, will deal with the situation.

[srmom]

33girl, As a parent, I would never say, "don't do this because you might end up dead like so and so." about a friend who had died, that is incredibly insensitive. But your comment:

They didn't need to use another human being or his/her misfortune to do that. If parents can't convey the gravity of the situation to their kids on its own merits, they're pathetic.

is too strong, IMO.

My brother died by getting into a car with a kid who had been drinking. He was 13 years old. It completely devastated my family! I have told my kids about the experience with the idea that they should know that bad things do happen when you least expect them to and that noone is immune. I hope that they have listened to me because it would kill me if anything happened to them.

Anyway, sometimes parents don't say things kids want to hear and sometimes kids don't hear what we're trying to say because it isn't coming out right. All we can hope is that there is love and understanding in the communication.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by bejazd

Yes, SDSU has a reputation for being a party school. But these kinds of issues- i.e. binge drinking and recreational drug use can start in middle school! Keep in mind that SDSU has 30K students. It's a small city.
You can go there and get a great education and go off and lead a great life, or you can party until you flunk out and go bag groceries. I've seen people do both!

I hope what the greek community does with this is to develop more alternative social activities so new members can get to their first formal and not feel like it wouldn't be a formal without alcohol and..whatever. But it's a tough sell to get young people to realize they can have a great social life and be responsible. Grad Nite at my son's HS was cancelled this year because not enough kids signed up...and the ASB leadership set the tone when they announced they would not go because it was alcohol free. How sad is that?

What's ASB?

This post brings up a point worth noting I think.

Sometimes, you have to know your audience, and that messages that seem overblown, exploitative, and sentimentalized to adults are actually appealing to the age group who most need to be reached with the message which often is the self absorbed, unrealistic, overly dramatic adolescent. So discussions about drugs and alcohol abuse actually might be more effective at the level that disgusts 33Girl.

[SWTXBelle]

When I was a senior in high school, my freshman crush (who was in college at the time) died in a drunk driving incident.
No one had to hammer the message home to us. All of us who went to the funeral got it. It CAN happen to you - you are NOT invincible. I know that it made a deep impression on many of us. Sometimes it takes an incident you can connect with - someone you knew, or knew of - to bring home that message.

[bejazd]

ASB=Associated Student Body. Student council. Senior class officers. The people who should have set the example for others...chose not to.

You are right about audience AlphaGam. After this incident at SDSU, I asked my son what he knew about binge drinking. He didn't know what it was! and I was really surprised because we have open discussions about this kind of stuff all the time in our house, and he had just finished the drug/alcohol ed part of health at school. So it was an opportunity for us to talk about it. I'm trying to teach him that you can learn to drink a beer with a piece of pizza and enjoy it, and there's a big difference between that and being drunk every time you go out. It's a start, anyway.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by Kevin

If someone's showing up to events already wasted, and indeed goes on to die from the intoxicated condition which existed during the time she was at the event, it should be fair to say that the chapter was on notice that she was using.

I find it difficult to believe that someone could be using both cocaine and alcohol at the same time and show no signs of intoxication. Yes, chapters need to be careful because things like this can be financially ruinous as well as causing HQs to revoke charters.

As for rumors, please show me where they are. This thread has been heavily edited and deleted in to avoid that sort of thing.

Kevin..........it is not difficult at all to conceal that you are coked up unless somebody knows exactly what to look for. I doubt that a bunch of girls at a big party would start checking out her pupils and the palms of her hands the minute she walked in the door. Furthermore, when you are doing a lot of blow, it pretty much cancels out the effects that alcohol have on you.........which is why it is dangerous to drink a lot and mix in cocaine.