biggest fraternities?

[Firehouse]

I think you're really barking up the wrong tree here. While I generally agree that the largest fraternities on a given campus are usually the best, that same model doesn't hold true when you're comoparing one national to another. You'd have to have some expereince with the personalities of the different fraternities to understand that.
Take a look, for instance, at Beta Theta Pi and Kappa Alpha Order (I'm not a member of either one). Neither of those are as large as the ones you listed, yet I think among people who are familiar with national fraternities, you'll find that both Beta and KA are more prestigeous than maybe one or two of the ones you cite.
Numbers are tricky. Sig Ep says it is the largest national fraternity, and that's true because they they base that on the fact that they have the largest number of undergraduates at any one time. But...the TKEs have the largest number of chapters, the SAEs have the largest number of alumni, the Pikes have the largest average chapter size...and none of it means much. Lambda Chi, as a national, has a very different personality than, say, Sigma Chi. Who's best? It depends on your frame of reference.
I know...you're only asking about the numbers. But that doesn't mask the underlying question of who's superior and who's inferior.

[iMAX386]

Not exactly, because I was only asking for statistics for my own benefit. Frankly I think my GLO is the best and that's not because of numbers. No one would ever be willing to admit that their house is any less of a fraternity than the next house. How the heck would you judge who's "best"?

You cited some statistics, but gave nothing to back them up. You don't know how many different variations of those statistics I've heard. I would like something that has some evidence behind it.

[SmartBlondeGPhB]

Originally posted by iMAX386
I'm sure this question will be never answered...but I'm still curious if anyone has any official information on the GLO ranks of:

- The number of total initiatiates

- The number of current undergraduates

- The number of chapters


I've seen various sources of information but they all seem to vary. The general idea that shines through is that the five largest houses are: Sigma Chi, SAE, TKE, SigEp, and Lambda Chi.

Anyone have anything to prove differently?

Does the NIC keep stats?

[Firehouse]

.."nothing to back them up..."
Sorry, check the Fraternitiy Executives Association. I included a link below to their website, but your national office will have copies of all their reports and surveys - that's where all these comparisons come from. The FEA has taken detailed surveys of its member fraternities for decades. I used to be on our national staff and I'm familiar with the reports - at least from the time I was there.
The NIC isn't much help, plus some of the most prominent national fraternities are no longer members. It's ironic that the president of the FEA is a Phi Delt yet Phi Delt is no longer a member of NIC. The CFEA is a very collegial organization and very cooperative.
http://www.fea-inc.org/index.shtml

[ksig]

Originally Posted by ZZ-kai-

Every fraternity/sorority has roots leading somewhere. If that is Italy back in the 1500's, great. If it's the Freemasons, great. If it's Phi Beta Kappa or the Flat Hat Club, great.....but, anyone can trace their respective history as far back as they want, if they choose to.

Does Kappa Sigma still have a chapter in Italy? Did they ever?

Just curious.

Kappa Sigma established the first chapter at the University of Bologna in 1400 and spread across Europe. William Grigsby McCormick, one of the American founders, traveled to Europe in the mid 1800s and was taught about the fraternity by one of it's members, who encouraged him to establish a chapter in America because the fraternity had almost disappeared in Europe. A clay jug with the letters on it dating back to the 1400s was found about 20 years ago in a collection of Italian pottery. I dont believe there are any chapters in Europe today.

[banditone]

n/m.

[Phimuteach]

Originally Posted by PhiPsiRuss

Its not a "fight." They are very good friends, and fellow trustees on our Endowment Fund.

They usually contribute in a very similar way. When one gets an idea, he usually leads with that idea. For example, one started our leadership school in Cabo (http://www.CaboAlpha.com/)

The other (who has a Phd in Economics) recently came up with a very complicated investment vehicle, and donated over $4 million to support it.

My understanding is that the top three are:
1) Phi Kappa Psi (almost $19 million)
2) Sigma Chi (just over $18 million)
3) Beta Theta Pi (over $13 million)

That information is 8 months old, so things could have changed.

My brother (a Phi Psi) went to Cabo for the leadership school last spring break. He had to pay for airfare out there, but that was basically it. I was very jealous!

[tallgreekalum]

Originally Posted by ksig

Kappa Sigma established the first chapter at the University of Bologna in 1400 and spread across Europe. William Grigsby McCormick, one of the American founders, traveled to Europe in the mid 1800s and was taught about the fraternity by one of it's members, who encouraged him to establish a chapter in America because the fraternity had almost disappeared in Europe. A clay jug with the letters on it dating back to the 1400s was found about 20 years ago in a collection of Italian pottery. I dont believe there are any chapters in Europe today.

I expect to start hearing from Chi Phi any minute. Bairds, the "bible" of fraternity history, recognizes Kappa Alpha Society, the oldest of the Union Triad, as the oldest social fraternity. "Claiming" and "proving" are two different things. I can show independent sources for our founding in 1832. Kappa Sigma has had 150 years to prove their antiquity. I believe the phase is "put up, or shut up".
On the original topic, Alpha Delt is more concerned about being the best fraternity, not the biggest. We choose not to charter organizations at every directional school (Northwest State College, Eastern Massachusetts University etc). I get a fresh inquiry every three weeks or so about starting ALpha Delt at various schools, but we choose not to go that way. If that makes us snobs, then so be it. Alpha Delt is well known amongst the top schools in North America. That's all we care about.

[JonInKC]

Originally Posted by ksig

Kappa Sigma established the first chapter at the University of Bologna in 1400 and spread across Europe. William Grigsby McCormick, one of the American founders, traveled to Europe in the mid 1800s and was taught about the fraternity by one of it's members, who encouraged him to establish a chapter in America because the fraternity had almost disappeared in Europe. A clay jug with the letters on it dating back to the 1400s was found about 20 years ago in a collection of Italian pottery. I dont believe there are any chapters in Europe today.

Interesting, I wasn't even aware there were Greek letter societies in the 1400s, particularly in Europe...

[wptw]

Originally Posted by JonInKC

Interesting, I wasn't even aware there were Greek letter societies in the 1400s, particularly in Europe...

There weren't. That's the point.

Every time someone jumps on GC thumping their chest and proclaiming they were founded in 1400 in Bologna, I feel compelled to speak up. I usually regret it afterward because some Kappa Sigmas inevitably feel I'm maligning them. That's not the case at all, so I'll try to tread more lightly this time... (no promises though, IyamwhatIyam)

Kappa Sigma is a great organization with a solid history, but I wish they would emphasize with new members that the Bologna history is a parable, and that there is no direct evidence linking the KS society in Bologna to modern day Kappa Sigma. The Chrysoloras backstory is a fantastic thematic foundation for a fraternity ritual - truly, one of the best among all fraternity rituals, and I've pretty much seen them all - but it's just that and not more.

Many times I see someone reply that the proof is esoteric and only available to members. But this is not true either. I'm giving nothing secret away by saying that the printed ritual and associated documents say no more about the connection between the two groups than the public histories do. Older and/or wiser Kappa Sigma alums concur in private messages to me over the years.

Now this "clay jug with the greek letters" thing is something I've started hearing only recently, and I'm inclined to put it in the greek urban legends category. It's got that vague urban-legendy feel to it, doesn't it? And anyway, the original group didn't use the greek letters Kappa and Sigma for their name, so this one's a little fishy. Maybe some greek dude named Kevin Smith left his monogrammed beer stein behind after vacationing in Italy, who knows. But OK, maybe that's true. Even if true, it doesn't really prove anything anyway - no one disputes the existence of the original group. The dispute is whether the original group was anything more than an inspiration for Mr. Jackson who in the 1880s (10+ years after the founding, mind you, with no prior mention of the story anywhere!) was trying to add some thematic elements to the original bare bones 1860s ritual to compete with the more "flowery" rituals of his contemporaries. He was trying to "gild the lily" (or I should say "gild the apple" ), and as I said, I think he really did a great job. But guys, it's allegory, not history.

(Oh, by the way ksig, the modern history claims, as you do, that McCormick was the famous European vacationer. But in 1887, Jackson writes that it was Hollingsworth, Rogers, Dunlap and others who were traveling in Europe. Not McCormick. McCormick, a wealthy capitalist from Chicago, was brought in later along with Semmes and Toadwin. So the "facts" are still somewhat confused to this day.)

But here's the thing that seals it for me: If evidence of a direct link existed, Kappa Sigma could show it without revealing any more information than what is already publicly available. Yet they haven't. Also, I have fairly detailed ritual discussions with half a dozen senior Kappa Sigma men including two past national officers, and they acknowledge such evidence does not exist.

I wouldn't go as far as tallgreekalum did and say put up or shut up. I wish I could think of a less provocative phrase, but I can't at the moment. So I'll just make this plea: Can't you guys be proud of a strong heritage and a very moving allegorical ritual without trying to lord this "founded in 1400" thing over people all the time? Can't we have a real debate about this historical detail without people getting defensive and playing the secrecy card? Again, all the material relevant to the debate is exoteric anyway.

I wrote a [typically long-winded] essay on this subject about a year ago. It's maybe 90% complete, so maybe I'll finish it up, get it blessed by Kappa Sigma to make sure it doesn't include anything truly esoteric, and then post it.

But somehow I think this assertion will persist, despite. If someone ever starts a thread on oldest greek urban legends, this one predates Betty Crocker, the moon landing and even the library of congress.

Respectfully [FWIW] submitted,
wptw

[ZZ-kai-]

Wow, I didn't know that Alpha Delt was so prestigious....you guys just cherry pick the good ones!

wptw - as always, great comment.

Originally Posted by tallgreekalum

I expect to start hearing from Chi Phi any minute. Bairds, the "bible" of fraternity history, recognizes Kappa Alpha Society, the oldest of the Union Triad, as the oldest social fraternity. "Claiming" and "proving" are two different things. I can show independent sources for our founding in 1832. Kappa Sigma has had 150 years to prove their antiquity. I believe the phase is "put up, or shut up".
On the original topic, Alpha Delt is more concerned about being the best fraternity, not the biggest. We choose not to charter organizations at every directional school (Northwest State College, Eastern Massachusetts University etc). I get a fresh inquiry every three weeks or so about starting ALpha Delt at various schools, but we choose not to go that way. If that makes us snobs, then so be it. Alpha Delt is well known amongst the top schools in North America. That's all we care about.

[tallgreekalum]

Originally Posted by ZZ-kai-

Wow, I didn't know that Alpha Delt was so prestigious....you guys just cherry pick the good ones!
Just compare our chapter roll to US News rankings, or any other you care to choose.

wptw - as always, great comment.

I agree. It is hard to hear these claims (and those of Chi Phi) so many times without getting just a bit annoyed. Thank you for stating the case less provocatively and more throughly.

[banditone]

I read somewhere that Lambda Lambda Lambda has the most Rhodes Scholars.

[Tex1899]

Originally Posted by banditone

I read somewhere that Lambda Lambda Lambda has the most Rhodes Scholars.

That wouldn't surprise me a bit.

[Lucky SC]

to say that one fraternity is completely dominant i think would be ignorant. Most fraternities to my understanding are dominant in their founding areas mostly and then are strong in other areas as well, its a regional and local thing.

SAE for example was founded at Bama, and they are very strong in the SEC schools, i haven't heard much from them in the Northeast, but they have a strong national presence.

I think every fraternity has their "stomping grounds" so to say where they have been strong and will stay strong... but for the most part fraternities like Sigma Chi, Pi Kappa Alpha, Kappa Sigma, Sigma Alpha Epsilon, Sigma Phi Epsilon, etc. (not trying to leave anyone out but you get the idea) will for the most part atleast be decent at schools where they are because of the big name.

I know at UVA though fraternities like St. Elmo's Fire which is an extremely small GLO is pretty dominant.

it all comes down to what school or region in particular we are speaking about.