Racial Conflict

[Elephant Walk]

In many instances I agree, but you know that social class is just a proxy for race in this country.

Agreed. It's more a point of money, not race. That's why we also hate white trash, guidos (new money usually), and other white sects.

[ForeverRoses]

So Elephant Walk, let me get this straight. Your fraternity chapter only offers bids to old money, white, southern boys that allow themselves to be hazed? Do you use religion as a qualifier as well? (only Protestants, etc.).

It is your chapter and if that's the way you want to do it, then it is your right (well, not the hazing part but that is a different thread). It is just foreign to me- I went to school in the midwest where even the traditionally southern fraternities had diversity. As for the sororities, I don't remember a single time when race was brought up during membership selection.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by PrettyBoy

Drolefille, you make great points, but one of the books I was reading was only written about 4 years ago. That's very current. I live in the northeast, and my parents were both born and raised in the south, so I know how it is. Elephantwalk is right. Racism is still happening in these organizations. Think about it, all of their founders would have never let anyone black in there organizations, and I know that when most of these organizations were founded a lot of African American weren't attending these schools because they weren't allowed to. But if they were allowed to attend your founders as well as the rest of them would have never allowed this to happen, based on one simple thing. The color of someones skin. How ridiculous is that. It's still happening. I think that's great that it doesn't happen as much where you pledged at, but I still think most of them still exclude blacks. I went to a historically black college and there were a few whites that attended and one of the guys wanted to join my frat. Everyone liked him, and we couldn't think of any reason to cut him. It was his senior year so he decided not to, but we didn't look at his color. Our founders would have turned over in their graves if we excluded him based on his color. He would have made a great addition to Kappa.

Unfortunately many of our founders were rascist, passively if not actively. However I think we feel that if they were alive today, they would have changed along with society. The women we pledge and initiate uphold our values no matter their color. I guess I just take issue with the word "most" when I can't see that being the case.

Out of curiousity, what do you think of a self segregated Greek system? One where there aren't any racial restrictions, but the black students go specifically to NPHC groups and never even look at NPC/IFC and the white students only consider NPC/IFC. Do you feel like somewthing is going wrong there or that something is going right? (This is just a question not somepoint I'm making, I'm curious)

Sometimes I think the perception is that "they" (being the outsider to whichever group) wouldn't be accepted, so they never try. But I don't know.

[Minerva's Girl]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

That's why we also hate white trash, guidos (new money usually), and other white sects.

It is scary to me that you think "hating" people is something to be proud of. At least you're honest though---I guess.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

That's why we also hate white trash, guidos (new money usually), and other white sects.

Which is funny to me because only the people who make up the rules through cultural capital can define their own trashiness as acceptable and "high class" whereas the trashiness of others is deemed "low class."



I've been watching wealthy white families act like trash for much of my life. Binge drinking, rowdy public displays, and more. Basically, things they wouldn't do in the streets of our quiet neighborhoods (although many were alcoholics behind closed doors) but they would do them on Family Weekends or in general public areas. Embarassing.

[shinerbock]

I just don't understand why people view it as a problem. Everyone excludes. Black people often segregate themselves, and I fail to see anything wrong with that. They often have more in common with other black people, and share common interests and goals. I just think its stupid to go out of your way to achieve diversity. Once again diversity =/= mixed races. You can have plenty of diversity in an all white or all black group. If your group wants to have a lot of different cultures and view points in it, go for it, enjoy. As for my fraternity, the reason we joined a fraternity is to be around people with common interests. If I wanted to be in a multi-cultural environment with a host of viewpoints, ideologies and faiths, I'd have joined....THE WORLD.

[FSUZeta]

wealth does not equal high class, and lack of wealth does not equal white trash. i have known plenty of people who were not rich, but were admired in the community in which they lived-they were not considered white trash.

i have also known rich people who definately were white trash-people much like the wealthy people that dstchaos described. to me trashy has more to do with actions than with ones bank account.

please try not to generalize about southern sororities and fraternities not offering membership to blacks-because that is just not true. off the top of my head i can name several npc and ifc chapters that have black members.

[Minerva's Girl]

shinerbock, point well taken. Most people gravitate toward others like themselves because 1) when navigating daily life, it's just easier and 2) we all enjoy the validation we receive spiritually and emotionally (especially when we are young.) The biggest problem occurs when "the fraternity" thinks that a university, the US Government or a Company (often one that does business with public institutions) is an extension of it's frat house. Often when the members of the organizations grow up, they continue to promote their friends, frat brothers etc. for positions of power and have the audicity to say (or wonder why) they don't know any people that aren't like them. Hence the remedy. . . affirmative action. It's dishonest to say that it doesn't happen and that when other people speak to it they are practicing "reverse racism".

When we are young, such things are considered "kids just having fun." When we go out into the real world, it has a much more serious affect. Generations of people don't receive educations and then don't have access to job opportunities. Then economic hardship follows and the cycle continues. If you adhere to the "traditional American values" of opportunity and equality for all, then start now. The principles we practice when we are young are the ones we typically take into adulthood.

[Elephant Walk]

been watching wealthy white families act like trash for much of my life.

I've been watching wealthy black families act like trash for much of my life....they're called rappers. Ever seen master p and flavor flav?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

I've been watching wealthy black families act like trash for much of my life....they're called rappers. Ever seen master p and flavor flav?

Flavor flav probably isn't wealthy. I personally know a former platinum selling artist who is in Flavor flav's category (i.e., a has-been as far as the music scene is concerned). The guy's best chance at a good pay day related to his fame is a VH1 show much like flav has been doing. He actually has nothing left from his music days, his record label screwed him over badly -- something I understand is pretty much the norm.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I just don't understand why people view it as a problem. Everyone excludes. Black people often segregate themselves, and I fail to see anything wrong with that. They often have more in common with other black people, and share common interests and goals. I just think its stupid to go out of your way to achieve diversity. Once again diversity =/= mixed races. You can have plenty of diversity in an all white or all black group. If your group wants to have a lot of different cultures and view points in it, go for it, enjoy. As for my fraternity, the reason we joined a fraternity is to be around people with common interests. If I wanted to be in a multi-cultural environment with a host of viewpoints, ideologies and faiths, I'd have joined....THE WORLD.

Everyone excludes to an extent because much of it is segregation by choice. However, all segregation by race and class in this society is not by choice. What that exclusion and segregation entails is what the discussion should really be about.

Common interests, well generally speaking people don't give people of other races the benefit of the doubt when it comes to common interests. For instance, I find that many white people think that having something in common with a black person means having to listen to a certain type of music or say things like "some of my best friends are black" or "to me you're not black...I don't see color." They fail to see that there are black people in different social classes and with different interests who you can have fun with without having to feel cautious over the interaction. But these blacks are still very in tune with their racial identity and don't want others to gloss over it or make a caricature out of it just to be friends with them.

Don't just tolerate me, try to understand me and I will give you the same respect.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

I've been watching wealthy black families act like trash for much of my life....they're called rappers. Ever seen master p and flavor flav?

Flavor Flav isn't wealthy--he's not even rich. However, Master p has managed to accumulate wealth through his companies and passed it down to his children. When's the last time you've seen Master P act like anything, btw?

Is that the only example of black or wealth that you could think of?

On another note, I sense that you don't really know what wealth is. Do you have as much in common with your friends as they assume that you do.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

wealth does not equal high class, and lack of wealth does not equal white trash. i have known plenty of people who were not rich, but were admired in the community in which they lived-they were not considered white trash.

i have also known rich people who definately were white trash-people much like the wealthy people that dstchaos described. to me trashy has more to do with actions than with ones bank account.

My point, exactly.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by ForeverRoses

So Elephant Walk, let me get this straight. Your fraternity chapter only offers bids to old money, white, southern boys that allow themselves to be hazed? Do you use religion as a qualifier as well? (only Protestants, etc.).

It is your chapter and if that's the way you want to do it, then it is your right (well, not the hazing part but that is a different thread). It is just foreign to me- I went to school in the midwest where even the traditionally southern fraternities had diversity. As for the sororities, I don't remember a single time when race was brought up during membership selection.

The Midwest and North are completely different than the South......you have to understand that. I wouldn't have exactly put it like ElephantWalk, but if a chapter wants to bid only a certain type of guy from certain areas (like most top Southern chapters do) then it is their right to do so.

[blackngoldengrl]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

please try not to generalize about southern sororities and fraternities not offering membership to blacks-because that is just not true. off the top of my head i can name several npc and ifc chapters that have black members.

Like some at the university of alabama? Do we even NEED to go there?