Flags of our Fathers

RACooper · #1 10-20-2006, 09:03 AM

Morning all,

I found out that after spending a day in the archives with two visiting Marine generals, I am to be rewarded along with other members of the UofT veterans group, with a VIP (free booze and food) screening of the film "Flags of our Fathers".

I'll let you all know about it if and when I get back...

DeltAlum · #2 10-20-2006, 12:17 PM

Congratulations, Rob.

I hope you'll enjoy the movie. I'm not a big movie person, but I think I'll see this one.

As a side note, it's always interesting to me that almost everyone believes that the flag raisers were all Marines. In fact, one of them was a Navy corpsman (medic).

Also, it has now been well documented that the famous prize winning picture of the event was not the actual first raising of the flag -- but was a restaging using a bigger flag. It was also captured on movie film, but that is almost never seen.

MysticCat · #3 10-20-2006, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

Also, it has now been well documented that the famous prize winning picture of the event was not the actual first raising of the flag -- but was a restaging using a bigger flag. It was also captured on movie film, but that is almost never seen.

It wasn't a restaging.

The point of raising the flag in the first place was to show that Mt. Suribachi had fallen to the Americans. The first flag raised was only 4.5 feet by 2 feet, 4 inches, so it was too small to be seen by Marines landing on the beaches below:

The picture we've all seen of the five Marines and one Navy corpsman :

(uncropped), shows a larger flag being raised so it can be seen from the beach. It was not staged. (This picture shows the smaller one being taken down while the second one was raised):

Joe Rosenthal did have marines pose for a shot a few minutes later -- he called this the "gung ho" shot:

Here is a picture of Rosenthal taking the posed "gung ho" shot:

A week or so after the pictures were taken, Rosenthal was asked by a reporter whether he posed the shot. He thought the reporter meant the "gung ho" shot and answered "Sure." Time Magazine's radio show took this and reported that "Rosenthal climbed Suribachi after the flag had already been planted. . . Like most photographers, Rosenthal could not resist reposing his characters in historic fashion." Thus, confusion was born. But Rosenthal, who received a Pulitzer Prize for the picture of the raising of the second flag, always maintained the picture was not staged, and the film to which you refer, which was made cotemporaneously with Rosenthals' picture, shows that the flag raising was not a restaging.

I'm looking forward to the movie.

LaneSig · #4 10-20-2006, 01:03 PM

I read the book this summer. I was interested because one of my uncles fought at Iwo Jima. He was only 18 or 19 years old.

Just a note: The famous picture wasn't actually a re-staging. It was the second flag raised for a reason: A high-ranking officer decided that he wanted the first flag that was raised, so this group of guys were raising a second flag. Read the book - especially this section. The photographer talks about how the elements were just perfect for this pic.

_Opi_ · #5 10-20-2006, 01:14 PM

My history is a little off..did this happen before or after they nuked the Japanese?

MysticCat · #6 10-20-2006, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaneSig

A high-ranking officer decided that he wanted the first flag that was raised, so this group of guys were raising a second flag.

True, and thanks -- I neglected to mention that point. It was the Secretary of the Navy, James Forrestal, who was present and wanted the flag. When his desire for the flag was relayed to the battalion commander, it was not taken well. With appropriate profanities, he declared that the flag belonged to the battalion. He decided to get it for the battalion before anyone else got it for Forrester, so he sent an officer to get a replacement flag. Included in the instructions were "make it a bigger one."

ETA: Both the flags are now in the Marine Corps Museum in Washington.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Opi_

My history is a little off..did this happen before or after they nuked the Japanese?

Before. (February of 1945, with the bombings in August of that year.)

ASUADPi · #7 10-20-2006, 01:24 PM

I heard on the news this morning that one of the men was from Arizona. They (the news station) won't actually be talking about it until this evening, so I'll have to watch the 5 o'clock news. I guess the man actually lost a battle to alcohol (shrugging my shoulders since that is what the news said). They mentioned his name very briefly but I didn't catch it.

I'm looking forward to seeing this movie since I'm a huge ww2 buff.

DeltAlum · #8 10-22-2006, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaneSig

IThe famous picture wasn't actually a re-staging. It was the second flag raised for a reason: A high-ranking officer decided that he wanted the first flag that was raised, so this group of guys were raising a second flag.

OK, I suppose this is a matter of language. Fact is, though, that the picture is not of the original raising of the flag.

In reality, it dosen't matter, though. It is a spectacular picture which has become a symbol to us. I don't find any problem in that. I just think that the circumstances, including some misunderstandings, are interesting.

My dad is a (European Theatre) WWII veteran. I'm going home to see him next weekend. I wonder if he would like to see the movie. He's not in good health -- and members of what Tom Brokaw calls "The Greatest Generation" are dying at an increasingly rapid rate. We owe them a lot.

jon1856 · #9 10-22-2006, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

OK, I suppose this is a matter of language. Fact is, though, that the picture is not of the original raising of the flag.

In reality, it dosen't matter, though. It is a spectacular picture which has become a symbol to us. I don't find any problem in that. I just think that the circumstances, including some misunderstandings, are interesting.

My dad is a (European Theatre) WWII veteran. I'm going home to see him next weekend. I wonder if he would like to see the movie. He's not in good health -- and members of what Tom Brokaw calls "The Greatest Generation" are dying at an increasingly rapid rate. We owe them a lot.

DeltAlum-Yes, we all do. Do you know if he saw SPR? If he did, then he would enjoy seeing this movie. Hope he is good health and spirts during your visit.

LaneSig · #10 10-22-2006, 05:52 PM

Going to see the movie in a little while. Let me clarify a couple of things that I said that might have been taken the wrong way.

Yes, all of the men in the picture had interesting back stories before the war. The back story I was referring to about the man in front has to do with some "confusion" and the man's mother - don't want to say more than that; anyone who read the book or saw the movie will know what I meant.

DeltAlum - I wasn't trying to show you up when I mentioned that it was not a 're-staging'. Most people hear 're-staging' and think: Okay, the photographer didn't get the picture taken correctly the first time, let's pretend this is the first time again and let him try and get it right. Go back to MysticCat's pictures and review the last passage that he covered and you will understand why he and I were both pointing out that it was not a restaging.