What do you think of T.D. Jakes?

[Diva_56]

Yes the question seems to invoke positive responses, I am a Christian and I see some falliable wording in his word-faith theology... do you agree of disagree.


Read this article for yourself
http://www.pfo.org/jakes.html

and this is his website
http://www.tdjakes.com/home.html

[SlvrnGold]

I have read most of T.D.'s book and even attended the Woman Thou Art Loosed conference this year in Atlanta, GA. And while a few things disturbed me while I was there...for instance, the way they constantly asked for money. It was annoying...I personally believe that you shouldn't have to beg grown people to give money in church...but whatever, my pastor does it, so maybe they know something I don't. However, despite a few annoyances, there is no doubt in my mind that when the man gets up to preach, it is a word from God. I went to the conference with a skeptical heart, as well, for hearing all sorts of things about T.D. Jakes. I prayed and asked the Lord to not make me susceptible to anything not of Him. But there is no denying it...souls were saved...and women were loosed, and I came back home with a renewed mind. I know that whenever you do something for the Lord...people will persecute you and call you everything but a child of God. T.D. is a man, fallible and prone to mistakes, but I truly believe that he does have a gift of speaking on and interpreting the word of God. Creflo Dollar on the other hand...*shaking my head*..well, that's another topic.

[Discogoddess]

I didn't have any opinion about him really, until I heard a commercial for yet another "gospel play" on the radio...this one produced by him...can you say O-V-E-R
T-H-E T-O-P? It turned me off, but I can't say that I agree or disagree with the man, as I have absolutely no interest in his books, tapes, etc. And that ad didn't convince me that I have anything to gain by consuming his work...

[Diva_56]

Yes Creflo and Taffi are another story... any way if any one knows T. D. Jakes him he is from a Baptist background with a strong Protestant voice in his sermons. Yes I do agree that many have recieved the Lord through him, but when you associate with the likes of Roberts Liardon, (Who claims to have seen Heaven and had a waterfight with Jesus in the River of Life... Yeah Right!!! ) and the rich lifestyle he lives (God has taught us about the evils of money and serving God, You can't both.) Not to say that you cant have money, but this goes back to what Creflo Dollar is preaching that you must not have a good relationship with God because you are not rich. Truly living up to his name.


Have a great week ladies!

[NUPE4LIFE]

Diva_56, I am totally interested in this topic. I won't call myself a fan of T.D. Jakes, but I won't say I hate him either. Televangelist in general, bother me. I mean I do believe that God does and will bless his people, but their lavish lifestyle also peturbs me a little bit. I don't think that they should take a vow of poverty like Catholic priest and nuns do, but I also don't wanna see my minister "bling-blinging" on tv. I love Hezekiah Walker, but I don't think his friendship with Puffy has done great things for him.

I've seen T.D. Jakes only a few times on TBN. That whole channel really scares me. But the times I have seen him, he seemed as though he was speaking of God. But we know everyone in the pulpit ain't there cause the Lord spoke to 'em. The only thing I was unhappy with was his love songs CD. Although it was spiritually based, I didn't like the title son "The Lady, Her Lover, Her Lord". He was on their trying to sound like Barry White or somebody. And he had Shirley "Miss Adulutery" Murdock singing on it. Didn't I see her in the video for Kelly Price's remake? I'm not hating on men of God. My problem is and what has turned me away from the church is this, the lines between secular and religion are becoming way too blurred. I mean if I want to "Shake it Fast" to Mystical I don't want to mix it with "Jesus Keep Me Near the Cross". I'm all for Contempory Gospel Music but what at cost? I mean yeah you might be saying Jesus, but still it just doesn't hit me the way an "Order My Steps" would. That's really all I have to say. I know I kinda left the subject a bit. But Diva, what falliables have you found in his doctrine? This is interesting, I'm curious since you're obvious a serious studier of the word.

[This message has been edited by NUPE4LIFE (edited November 14, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by NUPE4LIFE (edited November 14, 2000).]

[Diva_56]

Originally posted by NUPE4LIFE:
I mean yeah you might be saying Jesus, but still it just doesn't hit me the way an "Order My Steps" would. That's really all I have to say. I know I kinda left the subject a bit. But Diva, what falliables have you found in his doctrine? This is interesting, I'm curious since you're obvious a serious studier of the word.

[This message has been edited by NUPE4LIFE (edited November 14, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by NUPE4LIFE (edited November 14, 2000).]

This is exactly what I am talking about with the lines of secular and gospel being blurred. I understand artist who want to get the word out to the world who might not hear it. But if your familiar with Creflo A. Dollat and his wife Taffi, They preach a gospel that Jesus doesnt and is really money centered.

As for Mr. Jakes He has been accused by many christians (including myself) of heresey statements about the Trinity (Basicaly promoting modalism, an ancient heresy that states that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are just different "modes" of God rather than three unique entities.) Jakes is deceiving his followers by promoting Oneness Pentecostal views. A known cult in the christian world to read up on them and their views you can go here http://www.letusreason.org/Onendir.htm

Their views are not biblically sound to me.
Oneness teaches God is one person only, who was manifested in the flesh. Waht about His many manifestations in the Bible...

Oneness theology teaches that there is only one God. That God is numerically singular, and that Jesus Christ is that one God. With Deut.6:4 as their proclamation, they reject any concept of unity that would change the numerical one from its strict singular meaning. Oneness theology tries to explain the Oneness of God at the expense of the threeness. By using this as their beginning premise they can only come to the conclusion that the three who are called God, the Father, Son and Spirit can only be singular in person.


Mr Jakes is heavily involved with oneness pentecostals and some of these "biblical" teachings of his should be addressed.

[Diva_56]

Oh and by the way ban TBN from your vocabulary... There very questionable as far as the people on their programs teaching the "bible".

[1 Woman of Virtue]

This topic has always interested me...are Christians who have money out of the will of God? Personally, I don't think so. The Bible never says that money is evil...rather that the LOVE of money is the root of all evil. Diva_56, I read the article and it concerned me because I have listened to just about every preacher that the author critised (sp?) like Joyce Meyer, etc. (I don't know much about the guy who says he went to heaven though, but nobody took Elijah, John the Baptist or Jeremiah's visions seriously until recently either...just something to think about) and have truly been blessed by their ministry. Know I agree w/ NUPE4LIFE, I don't feel comfortable with the Pastor "bling-blinging", but I definitely do not believe that when I accept Christ, I also accept an impoverished life style. I guess the key is "all things in moderation"...but who am I to judge what that is for someone else? In the article it said something like "Paul said "Silver and Gold have I none...". Well was that a proclamation of mortal poverty, or did he just not have any change? Not trying to be funny , but when I walk down the street, and someone asks me for money, I usually tell them I don't have any. At that time I may not have any, but I'm not implying that I am poor...

I've heard of Creflo and Taffi, what are they about? Sorry for the long post, but this was a really good topic!

[LadyAKA]

Maybe I am not reading into his word as much as others, I don't take his books or his shows as gospel. I actually like both he and Creflo. I have purchased the lady, her lover and her lord book, but have spent nothing else on any of these men. I enjoy the way Bishop Jakes writes and I enjoy his thought perspective on the woman, he is a decent man and his book has given me some insight on my life - BUT I have not let him or his book lead my life!!! As for Creflo I used to watch him every Sunday morning, that was until I became a member of my own church. There is a great distinction between going to church and watching these men on TV. As we know TV is usually for entertainment purposes, so I don't put them in the same category as my pastor. But then I can picture someone arguing the fact that large church have televised sermons ...so what is the difference. I guess for me it is interpretation and situational. Whenever someone is speaking about the lord and dropping bible verses I listen and trying to see how I can use the message.
Anyway, like I started this post I like both T.D. Jakes and Creflo A. Dollar. But I must say that the whole giving money to them and them dressing better than ball players is off the hook - I almost fell into the trap for paying them, but I caught myself ...shoot I still have a problem tithing (hey I am still young in this thing).

But Diva, I too think you are well versed in this area, what fallibility/short comings do you see in these men and the work that they do?


Well, that is my piece.

Sisterly

[Discogoddess]

I'm not a Biblical scholar, but anyone teaching that if you are poor, then you are not living up to God's plan for your life is suspect to me. So is teaching that pursuing wealth because God told you to, encouraging people to give money to ministries in exchange for a promise to deliver intercessory prayer to "deliver" people from poverty and/or debt, or seeking favor from God solely in the form of material goods. Remember, God tells us plainly that there are false teachers out there, and in my mind, anyone flossin' on the backs of their struggling congregants is definitely a suspect.

I do not believe that poverty is a sign of salvation and/or level of commitment to God. However, it is EXTREMELY hard to put God first and make the pursuit of wealth second. Our world isn't designed like that. Money is an easier master to serve than our God, unfortunately.

[Diva_56]

Who don't let me get started on Creflo... Man I will be typing forever... I will try to get to the point though

here is the website to get a bit more aquainted
http://www.worldchangers.com


There you will find the "gospel" of money.




Many a godly man has been drawn away from the snare of wanting riches. 1 Tim 6:9-10 "But those who crave to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction."


Much bible teaching today is disguised as a carnal craving to be rich, what the Bible plainly calls coveting. An example of this would be Creflo Dollar and Kenneth Copeland leading the people in a chant repeated several times, "MONEY come unto me NOW, MONEY come unto me NOW." etc. -As he acted out pulling it in to his person.- (Dec.4, 1999 Voice of Victory telecast)


There is no excuse for this kind of teaching leading people into collected congregational coveting. What Bible message is this? ”They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children”(2 Peter 2:14)

The world sees many of these men use the Word of God on God's people in order to stuff money into their own pockets. The bible sees it as their fattening themselves for the day of slaughter in the last days (James 5). Not only do they distort and preach another gospel, many are doing it for their own aggrandizement as it is evident from their self indulgent, lavish lifestyles. The best hotel rooms, big houses, nice cars and expensive suits to prove God is blessing them and their ministry. The real problem is that they have convinced their followers that this is the way it’s suppose to be!

Creflo Dollar is a perfect example of this justification for himself and others. "God is coming back for a church without spot or blemish so he is not coming back to a church in debt…this revival must take place before Jesus can come back he cannot come back for a broke church, he cannot come back for a sick church, he cannot come back for a church that is in debt that would be against his word, I'm coming back for a glorious church, without spot or wrinkle so that means there's going to be some quick transference going on." (Changing your World, Mar.27, 2000)


What a load of crap!!

Now they teach a money revival. That we must gain all these things before Jesus comes back is hardly the Bibles perspective.

While many of these men may have begun as honest servants of the Lord, it is now difficult to see them as anything less than con men out for their own piece of heaven on earth.

Creflo Dollar states on his web site "You will walk in blessings, favor, prosperity, health and wealth, and you will do this without having to pursue wealth. First you must seek God's method of operation and His righteousness. When you find out how to live your life according to the Word of God you will become a money magnet."


Jesus sent us out to be witnesses of his love and grace!!!

Creflo thinks he sends us out to gain wealth. Of course his reasoning is that without money how can you preach the gospel. Money is so central to his message that he tells his followers "Well, you need to hear about money, because you ain't gonna have no love and joy and peace until you get some money!" (Creflo Dollar, Praise the Lord, July 20, 1999)


you can see how flawed this man's theology is.

Jesus sent the disciples out without money
( Mt. 10:9-12) “ Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out.”

They did not rent a room but depended on others hospitality and the Lord for their provision. The money belt was a small purse that would carry very little coins, they did not have dollar bills then but coins.




Sorry for the long post... I'll start another one for Mr. Jakes



[This message has been edited by Diva_56 (edited November 14, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Diva_56 (edited November 14, 2000).]

[Sweet Discretion]

Maybe I am a very small minority here but I think that both Bishop Jakes and Pastor Dollar are anointed men of God. My Pastor also preaches that the people of God are supposed to be wealthy and I don't see anything wrong with it. I refuse to believe that if I am trying to "live right" that God wants me to be broke. I don't think so. The Bible says that " I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper...". How can you truly be properous in this world without money? We have to remember that we have to stop looking at these preachers and tearing them down and seek God for ourselves. When it comes down to it , can't anyone answer to God on your behalf except for you. Remember "it is better to trust in God than to put confidence in man". So of course T.D. Jakes and Creflo Dollar are not perfect but they are all struggling to "make it in" just like us. We should spend less time tearing down these ministers and spend more time praying for them and their congregations.
Regardless of whatever anyone says, the Lord has truly used these men to forever change the lives of hundreds of thousands of people worldwide (I being one of them

[Discogoddess]

I'm sorry, but just because one doesn't agree that pastors should be teaching their congregations to covet money doesn't mean that one believes God wants believers to be broke. Those are separate issues...and besides, why do these men teach that the money should be sent to their ministries, in order to be a blessing? I would rather see people SAVE or INVEST that money, so that it can multiply and be a blessing to me and those around me...what about giving to struggling nonprofit organizations that help people instead of sending it to ministries that are obviously doing very well financially? Or, what about TITHING in your OWN congregation? Or agitating for real change in your municipality, so that there are SOLUTIONS to homelessness, poverty, disease, etc., and not just BAND-AIDS?

And in critiquing these men, we are exercising our right to our own views...just because someone questions doesn't mean they're "hating"; it's called a difference of opinion.

[Diva_56]

Where does Jesus say in the Bible we are supposed to be rich? I think we all need to exercise DISCERNMENT when listening to a preacher.

God meets our needs not our greed's. Simple but elusive for those caught in the web of deceit of giving to get a blessing. The Lord is not in need of our money God created the universe. He sustains it by the word of His power. He doesn't need your money, and He doesn't want your money, he wants our time our abilities our life to be put in his hands to be used, this may include our money but what God wants is "you", and He wants you with a right attitude!!!

This is my question "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?" (Romans 11:35).


Answer- This is a rhetorical question with no answer, because the answer is obvious, or should be. You cannot give to God with any expectation that God will be obliged to respond to you by either more money given or other blessings.

Quote from Sweet Discretion:
"How can you truly be properous in this world without money?"

The goal is not to be prosperous in the
world and be covetous of money. God's goal of every one of his children is to preach the gospel! God said HE would supply our needs, not the world.


In Mark 10:17-22 a rich man comes to Jesus asking how to have eternal life he points to the commandments of which he replies that he has kept them since he was young. Jesus sees he is sincere in his pursuit and loved him by saying the one thing hindering him : Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me."

22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.


vs.23 Jesus then makes the statement how hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God the disciples are astonished he then makes it even clearer that it is hard for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God


vs.25 "It is easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Well said Discogoddess... God doesn't want us to be broke, He said that he would supply our every need... but the want of money is the problem here... I rather be broke and whenever I needed food of clothing God provided. One cannot love God and Money. I trust God, and not what money can do for me. This is the fundamental difference...

[1 Woman of Virtue]

Sweet Discretion, I am inclined to go with you on this one. It is true, that most of these ministries are well funded. But when you look at the projectst that they sponsor, it is somewhat obvious as to how the money is spent. I'm a military brat and no matter what country I've been in, I have seen many of these ministries starting churches, ordering Bibles, funding hospitals, etc... I believe that the wealth that the Lord provides for us is to be used to further the purpose of His kingdom. If I'm not mistaken, many people use these ministries as places in which they can sow a seed (parable of sowing and reaping) for a harvest...admittedly there is a thin line between that and just sending them your entire paycheck, but that is up to the discernment and discretion of the individual. Yes God does supply our needs, but He also grants us the desire of our hearts, and blesses us exceedingly, aboundantly, above all we can ask or think (I'll have to find the exact scripture refrences for those scriptures). In Deut. 28, I believe, the Word lists the blessings and curses that come upon us as a result of our obedience, or lack there of. All I know is, according to the Word, if I am obedient, I will be blessed in every area of my life. It is important to trust God and not money. But it is also important to remember that money is not the problem...but the love of money is. Is it a sin to have money? I don't think so, neither do I think it's a sin to preach that wealth is a blessing that God has for us. On a side note, the idea of the "holy impoverished Christian" (from which many of our ideas about the "fear of wealth" come) is historically a British/Puritan concept, and is based more on their cultural beliefs than on religious background. In any event, may God CONTINUE to bless you!!!