High school hazing punishment

[James]

I wonder, in sober reflection, and without the emotional knee jerk reaction, whether some of you are talking out your asses.

Specifically with the degree of punishment that needs to be meted out to the Senior girls.

Do you really believe that their actions merit a punishment that should follow them for the rest of their lives?

Especially given the context of these activities?

Should they be felons? Which might bar them from certain types of financial aid, MANY jobs, deprive them of the right to vote etc etc. All for horrifying people more than the actual inujries?

And/Or do a year of hard time in prison?

If they are expelled or punished educationally, and it affects their college careers, that is againanother situation that may impact the rest of their lives. Is that appropriate given the situation?

And about their parents. Are you people actually maintaining that you as parents wouldn't leap to the defense of your girls' lives even after knowing they took part in something objectionable?

That given the resources you wouldn't try and get the best outcome for them? So that they didn't become a felon. Didn't go to prison. Wouldn't have their career options narrowed because of educational punishment?

Honestly, visceral emotion aside, are we responding appropriately to the situation?

[squirrely girl]

james -

after reading your post several times and almost coming close to feeling a little sympathy for these girls and the uncertainty of their futures, i stopped to reflect on the fact that sympathy was not felt by them for their victims.

one CAN argue that high school stupidity should not be the basis for the rest of their lives, but in the end, they did assault those other girls. assualt is not stupidity - it's a freakin' crime...

what about the girls who missed school time for medical attention - what about the girls who looked all f***ed up at prom because they've got broken ankles or stiches in their head - what about the girls who may be emotionally scarred from this - what about the girls who may have been interested in greek life but fear that it condones hazing incidents such as this?

why should white, high school girls from a decent socioeconomical background be held to any other standard of punishment than is allotted to the rest of society.

ultimately they SHOULD BE punished - the extent is left to the law/school system - but i will definetely maintain that getting off easy for them would serve NO LESSON WHATSOEVER - by allowing people to get off for their crimes we reinforce society's acceptence of that action.

and as part of society - i do not accept girls (or guys) assaulting each other in the name of 'tradition'.

marissa

[James]

Fine, I agree with you. things shouldn't gp unpunished. But what you have here is a situation that will get more punishment because of the media attention and the "horrified" reaction of viewers.

Look at the other thread.

So should the punishment follow and limit them for the rest of their lives ? Things like felonies are really serious. I realize some of the girls are messed up for prom. And some have injuries similar to a real football game. But come on.

Originally posted by squirrely girl
james -

after reading your post several times and almost coming close to feeling a little sympathy for these girls and the uncertainty of their futures, i stopped to reflect on the fact that sympathy was not felt by them for their victims.

one CAN argue that high school stupidity should not be the basis for the rest of their lives, but in the end, they did assault those other girls. assualt is not stupidity - it's a freakin' crime...

what about the girls who missed school time for medical attention - what about the girls who looked all f***ed up at prom because they've got broken ankles or stiches in their head - what about the girls who may be emotionally scarred from this - what about the girls who may have been interested in greek life but fear that it condones hazing incidents such as this?

why should white, high school girls from a decent socioeconomical background be held to any other standard of punishment than is allotted to the rest of society.

ultimately they SHOULD BE punished - the extent is left to the law/school system - but i will definetely maintain that getting off easy for them would serve NO LESSON WHATSOEVER - by allowing people to get off for their crimes we reinforce society's acceptence of that action.

and as part of society - i do not accept girls (or guys) assaulting each other in the name of 'tradition'.

marissa

[squirrely girl]

i do agree with you that this situation will recieve more punishment due to it's place in the media...

this does upset me because the sactity of the legal system should not rest in the hands of the media

and i do agree that nothing should follow somebody for the rest of their lives...

i believe these girls should get to go to college - whether this is AFTER serving time/probation/community service for battered women/etc is up to the law -

if and when these girls get to college i don't think they should EVER be allowed in a sorority or social organization in which they will EVER be over somebody else though - they've already shown their capability and willingness to hurt others

i honestly hope they learn something from this and i only wish that the bystanders could be punished also...

marissa

[James]

I sent this originally as a PM, but I thought I would post it also . . .


I don't have the time right now to go into the whole idea of mob psychology in a thread lol . . .

But I think, and I'll go out on a limb here, that most people are unaware of how legal issues can follow them forever.

For example, and this is more extreme. This boy was 4 years older than this girl and they were going out. The parents didn't like the situation or the boy. It was a highs chool relationship.

So they thought they could, get him to stop seeing their daughter by calling the police. They were pissed.

The problem is, there is a specific law for statutory rape. The law read that you could be up to 4 years older than the girl. He was 4 years and 10 days older than her. The courts sentenced him to 8 years in jail. The judges tried to limit the sentence to four years because they considered 8 years cruel and unusual punishment.

The prosecutors appealed that decisions aying 4 years was not long enough.

Sometimes there is a law of unintended consequences where the eventual ends overshadow the initial situation.

[momoftwo]

James,

The 15 girls who have been charged, have been charged with misdemeanors, not felonies. They could spend as much as one year in jail or face a (I think) $2,000 fine. They won't have a felony record.

The expulsions handed out by the school (except for the three who have taken the district to court and didn't accept the deal) will allow the girls to graduate with their grades frozen as they were at the time that they were first suspended. They have to do community service and they missed most of the end of the year festivities (prom, graduation, grad night).

I don't think these consequences will ruin anyone's life. The 15 that the courts are dealing with probably needed a wake-up call. I'm lucky to have kids who haven't caused me any real trouble, but I hope that if they did participate in something like this, that I would make them accept the consequences for their actions. I would also get them counseling to help them understand why they acted that way and how to make better choices in the future.

If my child's actions caused them to be arrested I would certainly provide him or her with competent legal representation. I would want to keep them from doing jail time, if I could. I really do have an issue with the parents who have taken the district to court to fight the expulsions. Their kids are getting the wrong message.

[DeltAlum]

I think the girls should be charged with assault as befits the "crime." Then I think it's up to the legal system to decide what to do about it.

The reality of the situation (assuming the judge will not be swayed by the weight of media attention -- which she/he shouldn't be) is that they are unlikely to get much more than probation, or a short jail term, fine and maybe some community service.

And, as momoftwo pointed out, they weren't charged with felonys.

If they can't get into a highly selective college because of this record (and negative news coverage), that's the way it goes. They could have considered that before they went ballistic on their classmates.

[LatinaAlumna]

Did anyone see one of the senior GBN girls on Good Morning America yesterday? She was with her mother and her attorney. Charlie Gibson asked the girl if any of the seniors felt remorse at what they had done, and to this she replied "I don't know what you mean." He had to repeat and re-phrase this question 3 times before she finally said "well, I apologized to the girls." This girl just sat there with a blank look on her face. When Charlie asked her mother if she knew about this "powderpuff tradition" the mom said "no," but then a few seconds later said "well I knew about it LAST year when my daughter told me what happened to her." UMMMM...if I came home and told my mom that someone poured anything in my hair she would been down to the school in a SECOND. This mom told her daughter that she thought it was stupid and didn't understand why she did it, but that was it. If this mom woud have payed a little more attention to her child the first time maybe her kid wouldn't be in such hot water now. Everytime I hear about this story, all I can think about is how poorly raised these kids are. I also think the same thing everytime I hear about any other kid who has committed a crime.

And further, if you commit a CRIME, or ASSAULT someone, you DESERVE to have it follow you around. We're not talking about a stolen pack of gum here.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

I think that these girls should be required to undergo mandatory therapy and community service during the summer before they go to college. They must be punished, but the punishment must fit the crime. I believe in justice tempered by mercy. One year of therapy at their expense, not the taxpayers, plus 500 hours of community service is my idea of an appropriate punishment.

I saw that GMA interview. I thought that girl's response highlighted the problem with these girls. REMORSE, huh? At least act sorry.

[starang21]

you guys remember what happened at the PR day parade down in NY a few years back? now, do you think those men who assaulted those women...should they be charged with stuff that'll follow them the rest of their lives? i highly doubt they got the slap on the wrist these morons are getting. sometimes you need to make an example of someone in order it never to happen again. letting them off easy the same kind of asinine logic that the parents of these morons are making. why punish them if they only beat the piss out of someone? yea right...if you do the crime, do the time. felonies are serious, so is the actual assault of human being. the punishment doesn't fit the crime...if you get expelled from school..what school in america lets you still graduate after they kick you out? where the hell is the logic? that's the real problem today with these spoiled brats, no kind of accountability and responsibility. trust my kids will have that.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

Whatever happened to the men who sexually assaulted women during the Puerto Rican Day Parade? I don't remember since it was three years ago.

[moe.ron]

They should be lucky that they can actually graduate. I know in my high school, they have a zero tolerance to violance. You get caught fighting, hazing, whatever, it's an automatic suspension. That mean these girls would've graduated next year.

[momoftwo]

Originally posted by LatinaAlumna
Did anyone see one of the senior GBN girls on Good Morning America yesterday? She was with her mother and her attorney. Charlie Gibson asked the girl if any of the seniors felt remorse at what they had done, and to this she replied "I don't know what you mean." He had to repeat and re-phrase this question 3 times before she finally said "well, I apologized to the girls." This girl just sat there with a blank look on her face. When Charlie asked her mother if she knew about this "powderpuff tradition" the mom said "no," but then a few seconds later said "well I knew about it LAST year when my daughter told me what happened to her."

This is exactly why this issue will not go away. I do not understand why these girls OR their parents OR their attorneys can't see how they are being perceived by the rest of the community, and the rest of the world. What do they think is in it for them to keep in front of the cameras? They do not seem to comprehend that what they were a party to was WRONG. I've said it before, I'll say it again...this never would have gotten the exposure it has if the girls were remorseful from the start.

And I've been puzzled that no junior parents have ever raised a concern about this before. I live in a community that's about as similar to Northbrook as you can get--I don't think the social norms are that different when you cross Willow Road. I know that parents try to stay out of things to avoid embarassing their children but when health and safety issues are involved, parents usually speak up. My personal experience is that when you have a legitimate concern, the district tends to be responsive. Why this has been tolerated is beyond me.

[AXJules]

Originally posted by momoftwo
This is exactly why this issue will not go away. I do not understand why these girls OR their parents OR their attorneys can't see how they are being perceived by the rest of the community, and the rest of the world. What do they think is in it for them to keep in front of the cameras? They do not seem to comprehend that what they were a party to was WRONG. I've said it before, I'll say it again...this never would have gotten the exposure it has if the girls were remorseful from the start.

And I've been puzzled that no junior parents have ever raised a concern about this before. I live in a community that's about as similar to Northbrook as you can get--I don't think the social norms are that different when you cross Willow Road. I know that parents try to stay out of things to avoid embarassing their children but when health and safety issues are involved, parents usually speak up. My personal experience is that when you have a legitimate concern, the district tends to be responsive. Why this has been tolerated is beyond me.

Momoftwo you are more than right about the whole Willow Road thing...half of the kids that go to GBN/GBS could technically go to the other school just b/c of wierd boundary lines, but anyway-
I think there's 2 reasons for why junior parents haven't done anything previously. #1) It has never ever been like this before. I'm not going to say there's never been a fistfight here or there, but what happened was usually between 2 girls and didn't involve anyone else....it's always been perceived in good fun and never violent or sadistic like this year.
#2 and most importantly) girls have gotten hurt before. My junior year, one of my friends got her nose broken. The sick/sad thing is, these girls wear their bruises as a badge of honor. 99% don't get their asses beaten, they just get roughed up. So you show up at school with the worst bruise on Monday, and you're a hardass. People are *supposed* to respect you what can I say I was never involved in the behavior, but what I'm saying is that these girls don't go home and cry to Mom and Dad b/c they wear any scratches proudly.
Some parents know they're going to "play football" and come hom ewith a bruise, some know theyr'e going to get wasted, which the parents are fine with (and that deserves a huge from me, lol) and some don't know anything.
Without the girls speaking out, parents don't really have anything to bring to the school.

And you are so right about the lack of remorse. It completely astonishes me that they're bitching about their college apps on NATIONAL news "Why me? Feel bad for me??" Well guess what, the people MAYBE we should feel bad for (those who weren't violent but still participated) quietly took their expulsions and are doing the time...the people we should definitely feel bad for are the ones making the Respect pins and passing them out at Sunset Foods. The ones who are being grouped with the animals and having their name tarnished. The ones organizing the "healing rallys" at synagogues and churches. I feel bad for the community, and its b/c they had nothing to do with it. Jesus, just FAKE an apology or some type of feeelings, ANY type of feelings, and maybe this will all start to fade.

[damasa]

Originally posted by James
whether some of you are talking out your asses.

You know James, I sometimes wonder if you are talking out of your ass as well.

I feel no sympathy for these girls because they didn't feel sympathy for the girls they were beating on. Someone could have died, hitting someone in the head with a bat is a very serious thing. I believe it should hold a pretty serious punishment.

Of course the media is playing a huge role in this. It may very well follow them for the rest of their lives. That's something that should have been thought about prior to engaging in this event. Other people live with their mistakes for the rest of their lives, what is so different here?

Oh, because they might be withdrawn from their school of choice? Then they are going to have to settle for a school they might not have chosen previously. That's life and it happens to other people everyday.