The Census is invasive, says Michigan

[DaemonSeid]

Wary Michigan residents say census treads on privacy
Jennifer Chambers / The Detroit News

Holt -- With 10 questions, it's one of the shortest U.S. census forms in history. But Joan Fabiano thinks it's not short enough, saying the government is entitled to ask only one question: How many people live at a residence?

Across Michigan, people are flexing their political muscle by picking and choosing which questions they complete for the U.S. census, which was mailed to homes March 15.

"There are people who are only going to fill out what is required by the Constitution," said Fabiano, a Holt resident and organizer of Grassroots in Michigan, which seeks to promote individual liberty and limited government. "It's a privacy issue and the federal government does not need to know anything they don't have a right to."

From Grassroots in Michigan to Tea Party activists to Libertarians, groups traditionally wary of government interference in private lives are casting a cynical eye on the census. Their hesitation reflects a national mood of mistrust of Big Brother at a time when census officials say it's most critical to be cooperative, given that funding for myriad programs depends on accurate counting.

"Most people that I know, they are filling out what they want to fill out," said Emily Salvette, state chairwoman of the Libertarian Party of Michigan, who lives in Ann Arbor. "If they feel a question is intrusive, they don't answer it. It's nothing new. It's 'how do we protect our privacy?' "

Census officials are eager to dispel privacy concerns as they work to improve return rates. Nationally, the rate of census return was at 20 percent on Thursday; in Michigan, it was at 26 percent. The numbers were far lower in the city of Detroit, which had only an 11 percent rate of return.

Detroit has several barriers to higher census participation rates, most notably a high adult illiteracy rate, said Erica Hill, coordinator for Detroit Mayor Dave Bing's office for the 2010 census.

Additionally, some are afraid the information the forms provide to the government will be shared with authorities, she said, and folks like undocumented immigrants, those past due on child support or living illegally in a rental home just don't want to be found.

"Suburban communities don't have the population of folks that we have in our areas," she added.

Census officials maintain the information collected from the questionnaire is confidential by law, cannot be used as evidence in court and is not subject to disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act. They add that the Constitution leaves the issue of determining census content to Congress, which approves all questions.

Kim Hunter, a Detroit-based census spokesman in Michigan, said the Census Bureau asks information such as name and birthday because it allows for verification of the data if needed.

"There is nothing ominous going on here," Hunter said. "We are trying to have the count have as much integrity as it can."

Incomplete census forms are still counted in a community's initial rate of return, officials said, but after being scanned, any forms with incomplete answers would be separated and placed into a nonresponsive follow-up pile.

Hunter said those who only partially fill out their forms can expect a visit from a census enumerator between May and July. Census officials have said they will make repeated visits if necessary to obtain information from nonresponsive households.

"Eventually, someone will come knocking on the door to obtain the information," Hunter said.

There are penalties for refusing to be counted in the census, specifically a $5,000 fine. But Hunter said he doesn't think anyone will be forced into completing the questionnaire. "We try to emphasize the benefits of completing it," he said.

Some Michigan residents object to personal information being asked, such as whether one owns or rents a home, while others say the government isn't entitled to data such as name and phone numbers. Others said they are offended at the lack of choices given for race/ethnicity and are writing in the word "American."

'There are political agendas'
Census officials say data collected off the form is used only for statistical purposes and to help determine allocation of federal funds for community services, such as school lunch programs and senior citizen centers, along with new construction projects such as highways and hospitals.

"I don't want to be part of the data capture. I will not fill out my phone number, they can look that up anyway," said Glenn Clark, a Troy resident active in the Oakland County Tea Party. "This census is the most politicized ever in the nation. They have a White House staff person in charge of it. There are political agendas here."


From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20100326/...#ixzz0jIB7NsH5

[Kevin]

More than likely, Michigan's going to lose a Congressman (at least one).

Estimates of the decline are at 465,000 or so and the state is losing a lot of its best talent to other states.

[BabyPiNK_FL]

Good luck with that those of you shaking in your boots over the census in Michigan. Your share will be more than welcome elsewhere. The government gave your your social security number which basically controls your entire life so I don't really think anything their going to ask is ultimately a secret from them at the end of the day.

[ree-Xi]

Another example of what many people define as "socialism".

There are groups in the US who want to do away with:

- public schools (which teach only the government's agenda)
- the road and highway system (yes, every person is assigned a stretch of road to care for)
- the FCC, FAA, FDA and and other "socialist" programs (sure, let's get rid of regulations regarding airplanes and flying!)
- public libraries (because everyone has professional journal and historic works at home
- Police (if we all had guns, we wouldn't need the police!!), fire departments (I got nothing on this one. Just let everything burn down)
- and much, much more!

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by ree-Xi

Another example of what many people define as "socialism".

There are groups in the US who want to do away with:

- public schools (which teach only the government's agenda)
- the road and highway system (yes, every person is assigned a stretch of road to care for)
- the FCC, FAA, FDA and and other "socialist" programs (sure, let's get rid of regulations regarding airplanes and flying!)
- public libraries (because everyone has professional journal and historic works at home
- Police (if we all had guns, we wouldn't need the police!!), fire departments (I got nothing on this one. Just let everything burn down)
- and much, much more!

I take it you're being overly dramatic but if not what groups are you talking about?

-I've heard recently that the Government used census data to round up Japanese-Americans into the FEMA camps during WWII, anybody know if thats true or just an anti census rumor?

[ree-Xi]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I take it you're being overly dramatic but if not what groups are you talking about?

No, I'm not. Google some of the terms and you will find a bunch of references from people and grass-roots organizations who honestly believe that these programs are socialist.

From what I have found, many of the people are ultra-conservative and frequently fundamentalist in their religion. For example, there is a movement to home school to protect children from "government-mandated curriculum".

Some examples of home-grown efforts:

• 1 Million Strong against our SOCIALIST Fire Departments

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=111256528714&topic=9024#!/group.php?gid=111256528714

• Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge (excerpt):
  "I pledge to eliminate all government intervention in my life. I will abstain from the use of and participation in any socialist goods and services including but not limited to the following:
  • Social Security
  • Medicare/Medicaid
  • State Children’s Health Insurance Programs (SCHIP)
  • Police, Fire, and Emergency Services
  • US Postal Service
  • Roads and Highways
  • Air Travel (regulated by the socialist FAA)
  • The US Railway System
  • Public Subways and Metro Systems
  • Public Bus and Lightrail Systems
  • Rest Areas on Highways
  • Sidewalks
  • All Government-Funded Local/State Projects (e.g., see Iowa 2009 federal senate appropriations)
  • Public Water and Sewer Services (goodbye socialist toilet, shower, dishwasher, kitchen sink, outdoor hose!)
  • Public and State Universities and Colleges
  • Public Primary and Secondary Schools (click link for more!!)
    

http://www.b12partners.net/wp/2009/0...purity-pledge/

• Freerepublic.com - "Over 300,000 people have registered for posting privileges on Free Republic since inception in 1996 and our forum is read daily by over one hundred thousand freedom loving citizens and patriots from all around the country, and all around the world. We're currently delivering over thirty million pageviews per month to over one million visitors"

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2295624/posts

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by ree-Xi

Another example of what many people define as "socialism".

There are groups in the US who want to do away with:

From my classically liberal perspective, you do not comprehend the issues (some of which you fairly nail, but are completely off the mark)

- public schools (which teach only the government's agenda)

J.S. Mill, a classical liberal like myself, thought that public schools created a singular thought process which would be dangerous to the growth of the mind. That being said, of the few things that I think the government should do, education is one of them.

- the road and highway system (yes, every person is assigned a stretch of road to care for)

Assigned? That sounds like fascism, not a libertarian dream. Furthermore, the rather standard argument is that corporations would build the roads (not contracted out, but over sole design), however a Hayekian (and thus free-market perspective) is that there is a market gap which the government must provide.

- the FCC, FAA, FDA and and other "socialist" programs (sure, let's get rid of regulations regarding airplanes and flying!)

Regulations aren't necessary. They're heavy-handed and generally hurt, instead of help. Let the market decide. The only regulations necessary are those which ensure property rights. As long as property rights are in place, the economic system will remain in place.

- public libraries (because everyone has professional journal and historic works at home

You're confusing things rather badly, this was the point where I realized you did not understand what you were talking about. The argument is NOT against libraries, it is against the state funding libraries. Libraries are easily created through private means. Carnegie (that evil baron-capitalist) created a lot of libraries out of his own pockets. Shoot, he was the one who created the foundation which led to TIAA-CREF.

- Police (if we all had guns, we wouldn't need the police!!), fire departments (I got nothing on this one. Just let everything burn down)

There have been some very good arguments for a private police force. That being said, they still have to be paid. Police/Firefighters are an example of market gap (along with streets and street signs and a few other things). However, a libertarian would propose "user fees".

For example, why should you pay for taxes for a firefighter if you live in an apartment? Those taxes should only be paid for by the owner of the apartment. Why should you pay for streets when you're bound to your bed? Cars should have a high user fee for the roads that would have to be paid, rather than unspecific taxation for something someone doesn't use. It leads to problems, sure. But in my opinion, alot less problems than the current system.

[ree-Xi]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

From my classically liberal perspective, you do not comprehend the issues (some of which you fairly nail, but are completely off the mark)

I was offering specific examples for PiKA2001, who suggested that I was being "overly dramatic". I am not an expert in anything, nor do I try to be. I don't have all of the information, but I wanted to provide examples to PiKA, of services that people are rallying against in the fight against "socialism".

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Regulations aren't necessary. They're heavy-handed and generally hurt, instead of help. Let the market decide. The only regulations necessary are those which ensure property rights. As long as property rights are in place, the economic system will remain in place.

I call mega-BS on that! Without the FDA, we would have pharmaceutical companies putting out any medication without properly testing them then withdrawing them from the market before the cost of litigation gets too high. That may be okay from a business perspective, but from a medical and an ethical perspective, it's not okay! We already don't like when drugs get past our strict testing with the FDA, and we end up with drugs like VIOXX, or Phen/Fen causing problems. Don't even get me started on the "health supplements" that don't even have to be regulated but have major health risks, are falsely advertised and routinely removed from the market. I for one thank our government for doing it's job with the FDA. We have the safest drug market in the world thanks to their work.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Sounds like a whole bunch of anarchist. A lot of the things they are against are considered the basic function of a government, to ensure the safety and well being of it's citizens.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Sounds like a whole bunch of anarchist.

Patriot movement/militia movement and the like actually.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Patriot movement/militia movement and the like actually.

Oh? Because some of the stuff thay are against like ES seem kind of extreme.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Oh? Because some of the stuff thay are against like ES seem kind of extreme.

The patriot movement is "kind of extreme." An underlying theme of much of the patriot movement and the associated militia movment is that the government is "the enemy" and anything associated with the government must be resisted.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

The patriot movement is "kind of extreme." An underlying theme of much of the patriot movement and the associated militia movment is that the government is "the enemy" and anything associated with the government must be resisted.

Ah ok. Maybe I'm just not seeing the distinction. How is that attitude different from not wanting a government in the first place?

[VandalSquirrel]

i am kind of LULZ at the guy who said "I won't give them my phone number, they can look it up!" if it is listed, what's the big deal? Furthermore if he just forked it over the government wouldn't have to pay a census worker to look it up or come to his house to ask questions.

i took the census test Wednesday and the woman said "No, you cannot carry a fire arm, even if you have a permit for conceal carry." No one left but she said people usually do. Also, I may be selected for a temporary position as this is a rural area and people may have to be contacted in person, which made me valuable to them with an AWD vehicle.