Hamas vs Israel in the streets of Gaza

[DaemonSeid]

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israeli troops battled Palestinian gunmen in a suburb of Gaza City Sunday in one of the fiercest ground battles so far as Israel's military inched toward Gaza's population centers.

A top Israeli defense official said Hamas has been badly hurt by the offensive in Gaza — especialy by the deaths of senior militants and shortages of ammunition — but predicted that the group would fight on.

The group "is not expected to raise a white flag," military intelligence chief Amos Yadlin told the Israeli Cabinet Sunday.

The fighting in the Sheikh Ajleen neighborhood erupted before dawn and continued through the morning as Israeli infantrymen and tanks advanced toward Gaza City and its approximately 400,000 residents, Palestinian witnesses said. Hamas and the smaller militant group Islamic Jihad said they ambushed the Israelis, leading to some of the heaviest fighting since Israel sent ground forces into the coastal territory on Jan. 3.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090111/...l_palestinians

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israeli troops battled Palestinian gunmen in a suburb of Gaza City Sunday in one of the fiercest ground battles so far as Israel's military inched toward Gaza's population centers.

A top Israeli defense official said Hamas has been badly hurt by the offensive in Gaza — especialy by the deaths of senior militants and shortages of ammunition — but predicted that the group would fight on.

The group "is not expected to raise a white flag," military intelligence chief Amos Yadlin told the Israeli Cabinet Sunday.

The fighting in the Sheikh Ajleen neighborhood erupted before dawn and continued through the morning as Israeli infantrymen and tanks advanced toward Gaza City and its approximately 400,000 residents, Palestinian witnesses said. Hamas and the smaller militant group Islamic Jihad said they ambushed the Israelis, leading to some of the heaviest fighting since Israel sent ground forces into the coastal territory on Jan. 3.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090111/...l_palestinians

Once again proving that Israel is awesome.

[AGDee]

I would say I'm pretty much in agreement with Ban who said "To both sides, I say: Just stop, now," the U.N. chief said. "Too many people have died. There has been too much civilian suffering. Too many people, Israelis and Palestinians, live in daily fear of their lives."

This is one of those conflicts that seemingly has no resolution. It's been going on for decades and will probably continue to go on for decades. Sad.

[SWTXBelle]

From a Paris paper -

"The European Union (EU) criticized the Israeli incursion into Gaza this week as a violation of international law. Louis Michel, the EU's aid chief, called upon Jerusalem "to respect their international obligations and ensure a humanitarian space for the delivery of vital relief." Michel underscored that "blocking access to people who are suffering and dying" forms a breach of "humanitarian law" as does the infliction itself of high number--some 500--of civilian casualties.
The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) has not respected international humanitarian aid efforts during its war on Gaza, given that only one crossing into Gaza is open and a naval blockade remains in place. The latter has been ongoing for eighteen months."

[Kevin]

Israel has a right to defend its people from terrorist attacks. Diplomacy has failed for decades. Perhaps it's time for a different tactic on Israel's part. They have the right to defend their people from terrorist attacks. This situation is 100% Hamas' fault, not Israel's. Hamas could have prevented this and negotiated their way to prosperity for their people, but apparently, that's not their end game.

[I.A.S.K.]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Israel has a right to defend its people from terrorist attacks. Diplomacy has failed for decades. Perhaps it's time for a different tactic on Israel's part. They have the right to defend their people from terrorist attacks. This situation is 100% Hamas' fault, not Israel's. Hamas could have prevented this and negotiated their way to prosperity for their people, but apparently, that's not their end game.

This situation is definitely not 100% Hamas' fault. Isreal did not have a right to the land in the first place and Israel definitely did not have the right to push the People into the small area of Gaza and then cut off their borders prohibiting trade and other essential economic functions. Isareal has a right to defend its people, but it does not have the right to slaughter innocent civilians while cutting them off from adequate help. The borders have been cut off for some time now. Its not like Hamas started an all out attack on Israel's citizens killing over 500 of them. The ratios are quite evident. 870:30 with the ratio of dead civilians looking something like 500:10. Want to know how to make a terrorist? Bomb their community consistantly, keep food and other essentials away from them, bomb mosques and schools, Kill more Civilans than "Hamas bad guys". That will turn people in to terrorists. Israel is completely wrong for this attack on Gaza. How do you justify the murders of innocent women and children?

FYI: Very Graphic!
These are some tuff unarmed terrorists. Throwing rocks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvwvxA9tgH4&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K461x...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnIjp...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=But9m...eature=related

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by I.A.S.K.

This situation is definitely not 100% Hamas' fault. Isreal did not have a right to the land in the first place and Israel definitely did not have the right to push the People into the small area of Gaza and then cut off their borders prohibiting trade and other essential economic functions. Isareal has a right to defend its people, but it does not have the right to slaughter innocent civilians while cutting them off from adequate help. The borders have been cut off for some time now. Its not like Hamas started an all out attack on Israel's citizens killing over 500 of them. The ratios are quite evident. 870:30 with the ratio of dead civilians looking something like 500:10. Want to know how to make a terrorist? Bomb their community consistantly, keep food and other essentials away from them, bomb mosques and schools, Kill more Civilans than "Hamas bad guys". That will turn people in to terrorists. Israel is completely wrong for this attack on Gaza. How do you justify the murders of innocent women and children?

FYI: Very Graphic!
These are some tuff unarmed terrorists. Throwing rocks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvwvxA9tgH4&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K461x...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnIjp...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=But9m...eature=related

Why did Israel not have a right to the land in the first place? Who even cares about that. The six-day war happened, the Arab countries tried to exterminate the Israelis, they got whipped. Sometimes when you go to war and get your ass handed to you, unpleasant things result.

As for the ratios, they're meaningless. This is the whole whiny argument that the countermeasures by Israel are not "proportional." What a crock of siht. If we had proportionally responded to 9/11, what would we have done? Flown a couple planes into the two tallest buildings in Afghanistan?

Israel has a right to defend its people. Diplomacy has failed for decades. You can't negotiate with someone whose central value is exterminating you. While appearing extreme, dealing a crushing blow to Hamas is about the only way Israel can stop these attacks.

The ratios of dead also fail to mention the fact that many of these dead (the great majority) are Palestinian fighters. Many of the rest are individuals purposely placed in harm's way by Hamas as human shields. Israel drops leaflets and tells people to get the hell out of dodge if they don't want to have bombs dropped on them. They are not intentionally targetting civilians. Hamas, on the other hand is packing rockets with metal balls in an attempt to kill as many innocent civilians as possible. There's just no comparison.

Finally, as for your "you want to know how to make a terrorist" spiel, I don't think Israel can help that. A reasonably objective Palestinian, at least by western thought standards might view the situation as being mostly Hamas' fault, i.e., if they weren't shooting rockets at Israel's people, the Palestinian people would have food, electricity, shelter and security. Hamas knew that an invasion like this was likely if they continued their activities, and they did so despite repeated warnings. Finally, these folks from Hamas are ordering Palestinian children to locate themselves around probable Hamas targets as human shields. To my mind, if I'm a Palestinian, I'm dragging the nearest Hamas official out into the street and beating him to death for so recklessly endangering my people.

As an aside, I find the 'shock' and 'horror' of some at this event to be ridiculous. This sort of thing has been happening in various locations all over the world and on a much grander scale (Darfur, anybody?) and the world community has hardly peeped about it. Is it because you don't like Jews? Is it because you don't think the lives in Darfur are as important as those in Gaza?

[I.A.S.K.]

Originally Posted by Kevin

1.Why did Israel not have a right to the land in the first place? 2.Who even cares about that. 3.The six-day war happened, the Arab countries tried to exterminate the Israelis, they got whipped. Sometimes when you go to war and get your ass handed to you, unpleasant things result.

4. As for the ratios, they're meaningless. 5. This is the whole whiny argument that the countermeasures by Israel are not "proportional." What a crock of siht. If we had proportionally responded to 9/11, what would we have done? Flown a couple planes into the two tallest buildings in Afghanistan?

6. Israel has a right to defend its people. Diplomacy has failed for decades. You can't negotiate with someone whose central value is exterminating you. While appearing extreme, dealing a crushing blow to Hamas is about the only way Israel can stop these attacks.

7. The ratios of dead also fail to mention the fact that many of these dead (the great majority) are Palestinian fighters. Many of the rest are individuals purposely placed in harm's way by Hamas as human shields. 8. Israel drops leaflets and tells people to get the hell out of dodge if they don't want to have bombs dropped on them. They are not intentionally targetting civilians. Hamas, on the other hand is packing rockets with metal balls in an attempt to kill as many innocent civilians as possible. There's just no comparison.

9. Finally, as for your "you want to know how to make a terrorist" spiel, I don't think Israel can help that. A reasonably objective Palestinian, at least by western thought standards might view the situation as being mostly Hamas' fault, i.e., if they weren't shooting rockets at Israel's people, the Palestinian people would have food, electricity, shelter and security. Hamas knew that an invasion like this was likely if they continued their activities, and they did so despite repeated warnings. Finally, these folks from Hamas are ordering Palestinian children to locate themselves around probable Hamas targets as human shields.
10. To my mind, if I'm a Palestinian, I'm dragging the nearest Hamas official out into the street and beating him to death for so recklessly endangering my people.

11. As an aside, I find the 'shock' and 'horror' of some at this event to be ridiculous. This sort of thing has been happening in various locations all over the world and on a much grander scale (Darfur, anybody?) and the world community has hardly peeped about it. Is it because you don't like Jews? Is it because you don't think the lives in Darfur are as important as those in Gaza?

1. Because it was not their land. Because it belonged to other people.
2. The people who have had their land stolen and been pushed into Gaza.
3. Israel is currently trying to exterminate Arabs.
4. WTF? How are these ratios meaningless? I would think recognizing the fact that this "war" is totally one sided and that the majority of people who are being killed are civilians is extremely meaningful.
5. I hardly think that recognizing that Israeli forces are killing more civilians than militants and that it is wrong is being whiny. The ratio also shows that this is not 100% Hamas' fault and it is not a tit for tat killing spree. It is an Israeli killing spree.
6. This statement can be made for both sides. Palestine has a right to defend its people. You cannot negotiate with someone who wants to destroy you. Hamas did in some ways try to keep an agreement with Israel. Israel has chosen to commit unacceptable acts. It is not possible to have peace when you block trade, steal land, and prevent the military from protecting its people. It failed after WWI and it failed with Israel and Palestine.
7. This would make sense if it were true, but it is not. If there are 900 dead and 500 of them are civilians then how is it that the majority are Palestinian fighters? Even American news reports are claiming that half the deaths are civilians (which means that truthfully more than half are). So I dont know what majority you're talking about. At best its 50/50.
8. You're right that there is no comparison. Israel is killing so many more civilians. Leaflets? Seriously? I havent heard of Israel dropping leaflets saying get out of town because we're bombing tomorrow at 3pm. As far as I know there were leaflets that asked civilians to turn in Hamas ops. And droping leaflets makes no sense when there is NO WHERE for the people to go! The UN is saying that Isreal has made it impossible for people to get to safety and/or get help.
9. There is no way Israel could aviod bombing Mosques, schools, UN buildings that the had the EXACT coordinates of? Really?
10. I honestly think that the only reason you can say that is because you are not in Gaza. These people are witnessing innocent family and friends being murdered by Israelis. If I was in Gaza I can say that once the people who are killing my people start bombing schools all bets are off. Why would you beat a Hamas op. when Israeli soldiers are the ones who are killing your people and stealing your land?
11. By any standards this is a horrible situation. Not shocking at all. Just because more heinous acts have occurred and continue to occur does not make this situation any less shocking and horrifying. For the most part no one life is greater than another.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by I.A.S.K.

1. Because it was not their land. Because it belonged to other people.
2. The people who have had their land stolen and been pushed into Gaza.
3. Israel is currently trying to exterminate Arabs.
4. WTF? How are these ratios meaningless? I would think recognizing the fact that this "war" is totally one sided and that the majority of people who are being killed are civilians is extremely meaningful.
5. I hardly think that recognizing that Israeli forces are killing more civilians than militants and that it is wrong is being whiny. The ratio also shows that this is not 100% Hamas' fault and it is not a tit for tat killing spree. It is an Israeli killing spree.
6. This statement can be made for both sides. Palestine has a right to defend its people. You cannot negotiate with someone who wants to destroy you. Hamas did in some ways try to keep an agreement with Israel. Israel has chosen to commit unacceptable acts. It is not possible to have peace when you block trade, steal land, and prevent the military from protecting its people. It failed after WWI and it failed with Israel and Palestine.
7. This would make sense if it were true, but it is not. If there are 900 dead and 500 of them are civilians then how is it that the majority are Palestinian fighters? Even American news reports are claiming that half the deaths are civilians (which means that truthfully more than half are). So I dont know what majority you're talking about. At best its 50/50.
8. You're right that there is no comparison. Israel is killing so many more civilians. Leaflets? Seriously? I havent heard of Israel dropping leaflets saying get out of town because we're bombing tomorrow at 3pm. As far as I know there were leaflets that asked civilians to turn in Hamas ops. And droping leaflets makes no sense when there is NO WHERE for the people to go! The UN is saying that Isreal has made it impossible for people to get to safety and/or get help.
9. There is no way Israel could aviod bombing Mosques, schools, UN buildings that the had the EXACT coordinates of? Really?
10. I honestly think that the only reason you can say that is because you are not in Gaza. These people are witnessing innocent family and friends being murdered by Israelis. If I was in Gaza I can say that once the people who are killing my people start bombing schools all bets are off. Why would you beat a Hamas op. when Israeli soldiers are the ones who are killing your people and stealing your land?
11. By any standards this is a horrible situation. Not shocking at all. Just because more heinous acts have occurred and continue to occur does not make this situation any less shocking and horrifying. For the most part no one life is greater than another.

1. & 2. You can only make that statement if you ignore what has happened in the area over the last 60 or so years. The Palestinians voluntarily left thinking that the Israelis were going to be annihilated. As you may recall, the only actual attempt in that area to exterminate a race of people was a pretty dismal failure, and the rest is history. Theft and conquest ain't the same thing. Otherwise, you'd owe your house and land back to some Native American tribe.

3. Again, if Israel wanted to do that, why have they not simply firebombed Gaza?

4. So if Israel let more of its soldiers be killed in this action, you'd be okay with it? Just so long as the ratios are somewhat similar, right?

5. The ratio doesn't have squat to do with who is at fault here. Israel is there for one reason and one reason only. To stop Hamas from shooting rockets into Israel. Hamas could have ceased doing this (as they agreed to) and Israel wouldn't be there right now, ergo, 100% Hamas' fault.

6. In what ways has Hamas ever kept any agreement with Israel? Their stated goal is extermination, not reconciliation. They are the only party involved here which has such a goal. As for 'blocking trade,' when that trade primarily consists of weapons to be used against the Israeli people, blocking trade is pretty reasonable. Prior to Hamas' jackassery, the people of Palestine had shelter, food, water, electricity, etc. Now they don't.

7. The only numbers we have are from Palestinian and U.N. officials -- hardly neutral observers.

8. http://www.latimes.com/news/printedi...,5371775.story

9. Bombing those places likely occurred because they were being used to shelter Hamas leadership and contraband. Hiding such things in Mosques is a pretty tired tactic at this point, unfortunately, it's also very popular.

10. Because without the Hamas folks, Israel wouldn't have been forced to do what it's doing now.

11. This is neither shocking nor horrifying. This is self-defense. Darfur is not. Find something legitimate to express horror about.

[SWTXBelle]

http://apnews.myway.com//article/200...D95NIRBG0.html


Even as a top Israeli envoy went to Egypt to discuss a cease-fire proposal, the military pushed farther into Gaza in an apparent effort to step up pressure on Hamas. Ground forces thrust deep into a crowded neighborhood for the first time, sending terrified residents fleeing for cover.
Shells also struck a hospital, five high-rise apartment buildings and a building housing media outlets in Gaza City, injuring several journalists. Bullets entered another building housing The Associated Press offices, entering a room where two staffers were working but wounding no one. The Foreign Press Association, representing journalists covering Israel and the Palestinian territories, demanded a halt to attacks on press buildings.

[RU OX Alum]

Israel is the antithesis of the United States and our involvement with this nation is disgusting and abhorrent and goes against the founding principles of our Federal Republic.

[cheerfulgreek]

It all hit the fan a few years after WWII, and it's going to get far worse before it gets better.

[SWTXBelle]

U.N. spokesman Adnan Abu Hasna said the U.N. had given Israel the coordinates of the building and the compound was also clearly marked with U.N. flags and logos. Large stocks of food and fuel used to supply hospital and water pumps were at risk of destruction, as were valuable U.N. archives dating back to 1948, Abu Hasna said.


My question is - why? The crack Israel military surely didn't make a mistake, having been given the coordinates.

Still waiting . . .

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

U.N. spokesman Adnan Abu Hasna said the U.N. had given Israel the coordinates of the building and the compound was also clearly marked with U.N. flags and logos. Large stocks of food and fuel used to supply hospital and water pumps were at risk of destruction, as were valuable U.N. archives dating back to 1948, Abu Hasna said.


My question is - why? The crack Israel military surely didn't make a mistake, having been given the coordinates.

Because they are just as hateful as the Nazi's before them. They think that their land is only for their people, and they won't stop until they get rid of everyone who doesn't tow that line.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

Because they are just as hateful as the Nazi's before them. They think that their land is only for their people, and they won't stop until they get rid of everyone who doesn't tow that line.

Show me a gas chamber and you win. Otherwise, I'm invoking Godwin's Law. It is estimated that around 6 million Jews were exterminated during WWII in a plan calculated to quickly and efficiently eradicate them.

If the Israelis wanted to eliminate Gaza, they absolutely have the military might to do that. Instead, they're targeting a specific enemy and placing their own people in harm's way (house to house fighting with infantry) to try to minimize collateral damage.

There simply is no comparison. Trying to compare the Israelis of today to the Nazis is comical.