Size of Pledge Class

[naraht]

According to
http://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2008/...turday-001.php

Alpha Phi Omega at William & Mary (Nu Rho) has a pledge class of 142. (I've since verified this)

This will given them (after the pledge process) 400 members. The scary thing is that would be after the fall pledge class, how many will they have in May?

Randy

[AndrewPiChi]

I think at that point a chapter needs to really limit its members, that is just to big to function properly which leads to the chapter acting more like an organization or honor society and less like a fraternity.

Any Idea of how many are active/associate in that number?

[Senusret I]

I don't judge another chapter based on their size. "Functioning properly" is relative.

If you have adequate space for meetings and ceremonies, go for it. This chapter clearly already had enough members for each pledge to have their own big brother -- that would be my only concern.

[Virtuous Woman]

I think with that many people, it would be impossible to have a unified class. More power to them. I'm sure Nu Rho will be able to accomplish a lot of service with that many Brothers.

[txdiva]

142??? WOW!!!

[naraht]

I just have a fundamental problem with telling someone interested in joining Alpha Phi Omega, interested in Leadership, Friendship and Service that they can't join because X number of people have already shown up to the rush event...

I guess I can see limitations if there are 100 people who want to join and the chapter is only 12 at the current time, (though that would be a great problem).

I don't know if open membership is an issue here. I have no idea how it would fly to have it in the by-laws. Something like

Article III, Section 2: The maximum size of the pledge class shall be 10 or 80% the number of active brothers, whichever is larger.


Randy

[PADFSUGirl2K2]

That is waaaay too many people for comfort. I guess with VW and Andrew. I just can't see how the chapter could function. Another point is that some of them could go inactive or graduate as well...

[AndrewPiChi]

I mean I understand the argument for more service, always a good thing.

But one must address that there is an individual aspect as well, it is also about inspiring people to do service and help their fellow man for the rest of their lives. Not just in their active years in Alpha Phi Omega and in their college tenure. Large pledge classes/chapters often have lower membership retention rates, their is less of an individual emphasis, lower probability of alumni involvment. With a smaller/normal chapter individuals are given far more responsibility, the frat is resting on your shoulders deal, an individual commitment that will continue well after college.

I know when someone leaves a small chapter like mine, it is a big deal. We regret the loss of a brother. If 20 people leave a large chapter, big deal right, there a more to fill that place.

Should membership restrictions/harder pledging requirments be placed on normal chapters, no, monsterous chapters with over 400 actives and 150 pledges, yes.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong or maybe I'm having trouble articulating this, little burnt out from a paper

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by AndrewPiChi

I mean I understand the argument for more service, always a good thing.

But one must address that there is an individual aspect as well, it is also about inspiring people to do service and help their fellow man for the rest of their lives.

I know when someone leaves a small chapter like mine, it is a big deal. We regret the loss of a brother. If 20 people leave a large chapter, big deal right, there a more to fill that place.

Should membership restrictions/harder pledging requirments be placed on normal chapters, no, monsterous chapters with over 400 actives and 150 pledges, yes.

Agreed. Granted, I come from a chapter that I've never seen at over 20 members in the 5 years since I pledged, and chapters that have new member classes of even 80 people baffle me (although they're definitely not a bad thing). But having a class of 142, and eventually 400 active members, seems excessive. How do you even keep track of new member progress, or how they're contributing (both positively and negatively) to the organization?

I understand that social fraternities and sororities function in different ways, but how can you get to know that many people in a recruitment period? There are reasons that sorority recruitment is limited, and why there are rounds and cuts, and while these fraternities don't have to take on the same method, it might be a good idea for chapters, on a case by case basis, to somewhat limit how many new members they're taking in. And I'm not saying there should be a rule that it says, "You can't have this many members," but I think the national organization should at some point step in and maybe give some advice on how to effectively cut down new member classes to a reasonable amount.

And if there is a chapter this large, maybe it's time for another organization to come to campus?

[Senusret I]

^^^ Some of what you speak can be proven or disproven by analyzing the data from the Perpetual Inventory. I defer to Randy on that because I'm not good with numbers, but I would love to see if Andrew's hypothesis holds up in the cases of Nu Rho in Section 83, Delta Gamma in Section 59, Chi in Section 1, and Rho Rho in Section 2.

[AndrewPiChi]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

^^^ Some of what you speak can be proven or disproven by analyzing the data from the Perpetual Inventory. I defer to Randy on that because I'm not good with numbers, but I would love to see if Andrew's hypothesis holds up in the cases of Nu Rho in Section 83, Delta Gamma in Section 59, Chi in Section 1, and Rho Rho in Section 2.

Senusret I I would love to see some statistical information on this. What is Nu Rho or Delta Gamma or Rho Rho respective situations? Just curious I dont know

As I said I could be wrong, its just what I have experienced. I don't believe this to be only AphiO either, I'm sure other social/service greek organizations could be go through the same issues as well.

[Serving25/7]

I agree. How can you bring in that many people and expect that the pledges get to know one another along with getting everything done that is required in order to complete the pledge process.

Clueless
B.C.P.
Spr 2K7
Sigma Iota

[arvid1978]

Originally Posted by Serving25/7

I agree. How can you bring in that many people and expect that the pledges get to know one another along with getting everything done that is required in order to complete the pledge process

See, I love hearing things like this because it highlights the fact that some people take APO way too seriously, and should be called out on it.

I come from a big chapter. My pledge class was 36 people, and we were a small one. My chapter was 90+ when I pledged. I knew every person in my pledge class, and most of my chapter. Just because I didn't know every single detail about every person in my chapter does not make me less of a brother or make my pledging and active experience any less meaningful than someone who pledged in a chapter where everybody knows everybody else's business and if you piss off the wrong person, you might as well not join because everyone will hate you anyway.

My pledge process was more comprehensive and better suited to make me a functional active member of this fraternity that most chapter's process. It was a lot more than show up, do some service, and hope we like you. It was not easy, it was not a cakewalk. It took time and dedication to complete. Being a large group does not make my chapter more like a service club than a service fraternity. My chapter works hard and parties just as hard, and they genuinely care about each other. Contrary to popular belief, we are not a revolving door where everybody who shows up and sticks it out gets a membership card. It's like those TV contests: Many will enter, not everybody will win. In fact, in my experience, I've seen that more in the smaller chapters where you do know everybody and people are more susceptible to "c'mon, they're a great person, let 'em in even though they're missing like 1/2 of their hours".

It says something to the greater campus community when a large group of dedicated students can put in over 3500 hours of service each semester, and they don't give hours for things like APO LEADS, going to conferences, committee or chapter meetings, etc. That's actual in-the-field service. The fact that large chapter such as this one still have large numbers of people beating down the doors each semester to be part of their brotherhood is testament to the greater good that they do to their chapter, campus, community, and country. I think the thing small-chapter people who are so quick to deride a large chapter should ask themselves, "What are they doing different from us that makes so many people want to do service with them?"

This semester, my home chapter's pledge class is about 100 people. This is after 4 consecutive pledge classes of 70 people. This campus is over 30,000 undergrads with over 1,000 student organizations to choose from, including a couple-dozen service clubs and the largest Greek system in the country. There are easier ways to volunteer in the area that don't involve going through a lengthy, difficult and time-consuming pledge process and there are plenty of other GLO's to join if they are interested in having a set of letters to wear that don't involve doing much volunteering at all. Obviously they're doing something right if they're still attracting so many people.

There is a lot more to be said about this, but I suspect I'll be roasted pretty well for this as it is. This is one of my hot-button topics, and this is why:

Saying that we want quality pledges instead of quantity of pledges and a train of thought that needs to come to an end in all chapters. Using "quality vs. quantity" as a metric to determine if you have a good chapter is like asking "Do I want beer or do I want tacos" (or two other food and drink combos that are both good on their own, but are great together) You don't want only one of those things, you want them both.

Having a real quality program brings quantity, and having a good quantity breeds quality as long as you keep the standards high, as you have all been implored to do. If you are not getting a large turnout at your informationals, that says something about your quality, and it's not good. It also says bad things about your quality if you are getting those large numbers of people but they don't come back the next semester.

Having a chapter program that brings in a lot of people but does nothing to keep them active is just as bad as having a chapter program that purposefully has a small pledge class and does nothing to increase their appeal to the rest of the campus. That's still having your "beer and tacos", but it's Natty Light and Taco Bell. It gets the job done, but it's not very satisfying.

We don't want Natty Light and Taco Bell. We want Sam Adams and Dos Reales (or some other great local Mexican place). That's what all chapters should be aiming for, whether you're big or small.

</rant>

[emb021]

Originally Posted by arvid1978

There is a lot more to be said about this, but I suspect I'll be roasted pretty well for this as it is.

We've found a witch, may we burn her?!?


Seriously, I think that's a great post. As a past pledgemaster, pledge education is something that is important to me, as I feel that a good pledge program leads to a good chapter (and fraternity). So I get a little annoyed by some people's stupid attitudes regarding pledging.

I've never bought into the 'big pledge class/chapter' is bad idea. Tho its hard for me to see it working, based on my experiences with smaller groups, I've never rejected them out of hand.

[arvid1978]

Originally Posted by emb021

We've found a witch, may we burn her?!?


Seriously, I think that's a great post. As a past pledgemaster, pledge education is something that is important to me, as I feel that a good pledge program leads to a good chapter (and fraternity). So I get a little annoyed by some people's stupid attitudes regarding pledging.

As do I, obviously. I think people sometimes forget that the ultimate purpose of pledging is to prepare those people to be successful actives who will continue to grow and advance the chapter, and by association, APO as a whole. Any chapter whose pledge program is doing anything else is failing those pledges, their chapter, and by association, APO as a whole.

I've never bought into the 'big pledge class/chapter' is bad idea. Tho its hard for me to see it working, based on my experiences with smaller groups, I've never rejected them out of hand.

I advise a big chapter and I advise a small chapter. I see the same problems in both, but they're actually amplified a lot more in the small chapter. If there is a rift in the membership and people decide to take their toys and go home, it does not impact the big chapter nearly as much as it does the small chapter.

Honestly, a lot of people spend more time worrying about what other GLO's are doing instead of focusing on what makes us different than the rest. Nothing makes me sadder than to see a chapter that take their cues, mannerisms and base their activities off of what other people on their campus are doing (especially other GLOs) and spend more time trying to be accepted by those other groups as being "legitimate greeks" instead of finding new ways to appeal to the larger student body who would be genuinely interested in leadership, friendship and service.

My big chapter doesn't really care what other groups are doing, they do their own thing. My small chapter frets constantly over what everybody else is doing on campus, and goes out of their way to schedule APO activities around the events of other groups that their members are in. Guess which one has the retention problem?