German incest couple lose European Court case

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by BBC article

A brother and sister from Germany who had an incestuous relationship, arguing they had the right to a family life, have lost their European court case.

Patrick Stuebing and Susan Karolewski had four children together, two of whom are described as disabled.

The European Court of Human Rights said Germany was entitled to ban incest.
Stuebing, who was convicted of incest and spent three years in prison, did not meet his natural sister until he tracked down his family as an adult.
He had been adopted as a child and only made contact with his natural relatives in his 20s.

The siblings grew close after their mother died.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17690997

[DrPhil]

Some comments that I have read about this:

1. "Incest laws are about mandating morality rather than a concern over human genes or offspring disability."

My response: Life is complex enough for incest laws to be about both legislating morality and genes. Imagine the world if we got rid of all laws and policies that serve to legislate morality.

2. Supposedly, France doesn't prosecute these kinds of relationships. Sweden permits half-siblings to marry.

My response: Gross but perhaps they are making the distinction between consensual "incest" and nonconsensual (i.e., incest survivors/survivors of incest).

[AlphaFrog]

I didn't enjoy Mansfield Park (Jane Austen) because of the cousin relationship (yes, I know it was different back then) and the chick on Game of Thrones that thinks she and her twin brother were meant to be together also squicks me out.

It's bad enough when it happens in fiction...

That being said, honestly if they would both get sterilized, I don't care what they do behind closed.doors. I just don't want to know about it because....hjghnbggh65$&&$$ blaaaaaaash.

[amIblue?]

Oh my.

[DrPhil]

Well, they already have 4 kids, 2 of whom have some form of "special needs."

There are people who think it is okay to date cousins if they are 3rd cousins and beyond. It's one thing to accidentally date a 5th cousin--many of us are distant relatives. It's another thing if you know that is your kin and family reunions would be gross.

[AlphaFrog]

I wasn't particularly talking about this couple when I mentioned sterilization...that's closing the barn door after the horses are already out. Although if she's still of child bearing years, they should.

I guess what I was saying was that if it ONLY affects them and what they do as consenting adults in their own bedroom, don't make me acknowledge it (trying to get married, PDA, talk about it outside the relationship), and I'd leave them to it. Who cares.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Well, they already have 4 kids, 2 of whom have some form of "special needs."

If that's the harm, unless Germany has the same punishment for mothers who drink alcohol and take narcotics while their children are in utero, it's still a bit of a double standard. That said, if Germany wants to make these laws, I certainly don't have a problem with it. If another country wants to legislate morality, who the hell are we to say that they can't?

Glad the European Court came down the way it did. Stating that incest is a human right would be a travesty. What these two did was directly harmful to their children who have been born with disabilities or will suffer from serious conditions later in life due to their parents' poor choices.

I don't think I'd stop at putting these parents in prison. I'd want to terminate their parental rights as well.

Reading the article, I find it interesting that the German court didn't convict the mother because she has a personality disorder. I can only imagine that as a defense here in the U.S. Such a rule would definitely thin out the prison population.