No place for average PNMs?

[violetpretty]

In the age of quota and RFM, I am having a hard time understanding how a PNM with nothing “wrong” with her except being out of state and/or not having recs can get cut from ALL chapters at a competitive campus. Note I am NOT talking about a PNM who gets cut by all chapters but one or two.

By nothing “wrong”, I mean this theoretical PNM is simply average (not poor) in the area of grades, involvement, looks, and conversation, and she does not have a reputation issue. Especially at academically competitive universities, the chances of a PNM looking poor on paper are slim because she wouldn't have been admitted to the university in the first place.

Quota is set to optimize the number of PNMs joining chapters and the number of chapters making quota. Quota is proportional to the number of PNMs in recruitment.

With RFM, the “top” chapters are forced to make the steepest cuts the first round, and the “bottom” chapters are advised to make minimal cuts throughout the process, cutting PNMs who do not meet their membership standards (poor grades, poor conversation/personality, poor personal presentation, etc). This optimizes the placement rate.

Even if this theoretical PNM is from out of state and/or does not have recs (read: unknown), “bottom” chapters have the luxury of not being forced to make steep cuts and therefore have time to get to know her through conversation.

Is there no place for a PNM who is average and unknown? I am not talking about “top 6” at UT or “Old Row” at Bama, etc. I know this may be treading into MS territory, but do “bottom” chapters at competitive schools cut PNMs when there seems to be “no reason” (none of the reasons discussed above) to cut her?

If there are a lot of PNMs getting cut for “no reason”, that’s usually when a Panhellenic looks to Extension.

Perhaps the PNMs/mothers of PNMs released by ALL chapters are simply not telling us on GC any “reason” they could have been cut. And it’s also likely that PNMs who get cut from all chapters are overrepresented on GC because those in the know/with connections don’t need to come to GC for information.

[carnation]

I mentioned about a month ago that I'd spent some time with one daughter, writing recs for students from the private school where she teaches. These girls had it all--over a 4.0 with AP courses, gorgeous, incredible activities and awards on their resumes, and all I could think of was if this was who the average PNMs were competing against, they were in big trouble. I knew there were many more with the incredible resumes and looks; I had met them in Birmingham, Atlanta, etc.

I so feel for the girls who are unprepared or from small towns. What must they think when they get to campus and see all these beautiful and self-confident girls? I've known several who never made it to the first rush party because they were so stunned by their competition.

Some of these girls--truly, there's no concrete reason to cut them. They would be in demand on many campuses; they're attractive, active, social, and so forth. But... when the big cuts come at competitive schools, many groups will keep those whom they know and those whom they know of.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by carnation

Some of these girls--truly, there's no concrete reason to cut them. They would be in demand on many campuses; they're attractive, active, social, and so forth. But... when the big cuts come at competitive schools, many groups will keep those whom they know and those whom they know of.

Of course these PNMs will be cut from top and middle chapters at competitive schools, but does this sentiment apply to bottom chapters who don't have to make "big cuts" per RFM?

[carnation]

I don't know how the bottom chapters cut when they have to but lately I've been shocked by some of the girls that they've cut. I can see where they might feel like cutting the top of the line girls who will be heavily in demand anyway but I can't figure out why so many of them are cutting good quality girls. Recently, some good, solid girls from our city have been cut; girls who have been leaders here, had steady reputations, and were attractive and social and the local Greeks of all ages have been stunned by it. I've talked to many, many other southern GCers and they've seen the same.

[jwright25]

Originally Posted by carnation

I don't know how the bottom chapters cut when they have to but lately I've been shocked by some of the girls that they've cut. I can see where they might feel like cutting the top of the line girls who will be heavily in demand anyway but I can't figure out why so many of them are cutting good quality girls.

NOT saying this about anyone you know - cause I obviously don't know them. However, some bottom chapters cut women who are rude and completely uninterested in them.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

And it’s also likely that PNMs who get cut from all chapters are overrepresented on GC because those in the know/with connections don’t need to come to GC for information.

This.

I say it all the time, but I know that if I were a PNM who read GC, I'd probably assume that most women who rush at big schools DON'T get bids because we see a higher number of bidless women here than I think actually occur in real life. I agree that it is likely due to the fact that alot of the PNMs who come here are not as well prepared as most of the PNM pool at some of the more competitive schools.

Also consider the fact that alot of these unprepared women likely want the same top chapters that all of their friends want. So when they are released from those, they likely do still have a shot at some other great groups, but they aren't interested in those, so they just drop out.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Also consider the fact that alot of these unprepared women likely want the same top chapters that all of their friends want. So when they are released from those, they likely do still have a shot at some other great groups, but they aren't interested in those, so they just drop out.

Oh, of course that happens at every school. I'm talking about PNMs who get cut from every chapter, not drop out because they don't like their choices.

I think sometimes PNMs/moms of PNMs will say they "got cut from every house" when they really mean they "got cut from every chapter they cared to join".

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

I think sometimes PNMs/moms of PNMs will say they "got cut from every house" when they really mean they "got cut from every chapter they cared to join".

This too.

Alot of times I really think that when someone says "I/my daughter went bidless at Bama/UT/wherever" on GC, the translation is actually:

"I/my daughter only got invites to 2 or 3 chapters that weren't her faves and dropped out."

[jwright25]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

And it’s also likely that PNMs who get cut from all chapters are overrepresented on GC because those in the know/with connections don’t need to come to GC for information.

Yep. I agree with you and KSUViolet06. On many occasions I have read "reports" on GC of the massive amount of women who were released from all chapters at particular campuses, when in fact that is not the case. I've bitten my tongue (fingers?) more than once and resisted the urge to make the correction - no need to kick someone when she's down. (Even though it makes the sororities at that school look like evil monsters.)

I think that we have a rash of mommies who are trying to justify their awesome daughters' release by overdramatizing the number released from all chapters. And I also believe that there are some daughters who don't tell their mommies the whole truth and simply say that they were cut from everyone when in fact they still had options but chose to withdraw.

[Titchou]

If your national organization requires that you have a rec for all NMs, then it doesn't matter if you are top tier or bottom tier, you have to release the woman if you can't get a form on her. Now of course, there are "ways" to get one but frankly, having been an adviser for many years, I'm not signing one on someone we can't find out about and who is average - particularly at a bottom tier school. Strange as it may sound, they have to be picky too - or they are going to stay on bottom. And she is truly average - average grades, average abilities - she's not going to help you raise your GPA or accomplish those things which your organization thinks you are deficient in.

Granted, some schools actually have an "average" student population. At those schools I might be inclined to take her, but not most other places.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by Titchou

If your national organization requires that you have a rec for all NMs, then it doesn't matter if you are top tier or bottom tier, you have to release the woman if you can't get a form on her. Now of course, there are "ways" to get one but frankly, having been an adviser for many years, I'm not signing one on someone we can't find out about and who is average - particularly at a bottom tier school. Strange as it may sound, they have to be picky too - or they are going to stay on bottom. And she is truly average - average grades, average abilities - she's not going to help you raise your GPA or accomplish those things which your organization thinks you are deficient in.

Every NPC has chapters at large schools up North (and elsewhere where it is uncommon for PNMs to secure their own recs) who have three options:
*go without a NM class (not a viable option)
*have advisors scramble for recs for 500 girls
*ignore National policy

Unless you are simply writing on a sheet of paper, "Dear Sisters, I recommend Polly PNM for membership in XYZ. Sincerely, Alumna" and counting that as a rec.

I'm curious as to how some chapters get around such a policy.

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Every NPC has chapters at large schools up North (and elsewhere where it is uncommon for PNMs to secure their own recs) who have three options:
*go without a NM class (not a viable option)
*have advisors scramble for recs for 500 girls
*ignore National policy

Unless you are simply writing on a sheet of paper, "Dear Sisters, I recommend Polly PNM for membership in XYZ. Sincerely, Alumna" and counting that as a rec.

I'm curious as to how some chapters get around such a policy.

Well, that's private membership selection information but there are ways.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Every NPC has chapters at large schools up North (and elsewhere where it is uncommon for PNMs to secure their own recs) who have three options:
*go without a NM class (not a viable option)
*have advisors scramble for recs for 500 girls
*ignore National policy

Unless you are simply writing on a sheet of paper, "Dear Sisters, I recommend Polly PNM for membership in XYZ. Sincerely, Alumna" and counting that as a rec.

I'm curious as to how some chapters get around such a policy.

I think many NPCs have no such policy. AOII doesn't. Recs are nice and may be necessary at some chapters but are not required Internationally to be accepted into AOII.

[RhoGamma09]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Every NPC has chapters at large schools up North (and elsewhere where it is uncommon for PNMs to secure their own recs) who have three options:
*go without a NM class (not a viable option)
*have advisors scramble for recs for 500 girls
*ignore National policy

Unless you are simply writing on a sheet of paper, "Dear Sisters, I recommend Polly PNM for membership in XYZ. Sincerely, Alumna" and counting that as a rec.

I'm curious as to how some chapters get around such a policy.

See, this confuses me. At my school, we dont do recs at all (actually, if you talked to most people here, and you explained recs, they would think you were crazy, they have never heard of them). We have registration, so panhel finds out all the necessary information such as GPA, activities, legacy, etc etc etc...there is a GPA minimum to go through recruitment, etc....but I thought this happened at all schools?

I think our Panhel feels that having the basics like that on file satisfies the need for recs, and the rest is up to a girl to make a good impression and find her sorority. I've never seen recs mentioned in our national policy either.

I dont know, maybe I am missing something...(like I said, I only know about it because of GC!) but we do great without recs, and we're doing better every year.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by RhoGamma09

See, this confuses me. At my school, we dont do recs at all (actually, if you talked to most people here, and you explained recs, they would think you were crazy, they have never heard of them). We have registration, so panhel finds out all the necessary information such as GPA, activities, legacy, etc etc etc...there is a GPA minimum to go through recruitment, etc....but I thought this happened at all schools?

I think our Panhel feels that having the basics like that on file satisfies the need for recs, and the rest is up to a girl to make a good impression and find her sorority. I've never seen recs mentioned in our national policy either.

I dont know, maybe I am missing something...(like I said, I only know about it because of GC!) but we do great without recs, and we're doing better every year.

Having a rec is something that's just standard at some schools. It's nothing that guarantees you a bid or anything. It's similar to having a certain GPA. Girls know that in order to do well, you need it. It's just standard procedure (along with registration, grades, and everything else).

Also, at many schools where recs are needed, there are close to 1,000 PNMs going through, and having recs helps to provide extra info about girls.

Something you will figure out if you stick around here long enough is that every school is different. The way another school functions does not make it better or worse.