Camel, after rape, must die, says Islamic law

[Lindz928]

That story really leaves me shocked, appalled, and speechless. How terribly sad.

Originally posted by honeychile


As I said, I cannot provide the particulars, as her family wants to maintain contact with Sarai's children. I spoke to her a couple times while she was still alive & in Malaysia, and she made it clear that her husband only used his religion when it was to his advantage - he had alcohol & other things not permitted by the Quran. Towards her end, her letters became more and more urgent, until the last one, which was smuggled out. Along the very edges of this small letters, she had written in code: "Don't EVER let anything come between you and American citizenship! You don't know what it's like, to not even be able to go to the Embassy for help, just because the country you're in doesn't consider you an American anymore!" She said more, but some of it is private.

That's the gist of it. Our chapter's Spirit Award is named after her, as Sarai was one of the lovable & beautiful young women most of us ever met. If one person is saved from harm by the
telling of her story, I will feel justified.

This story is so sad and it scares me a little bit. I wish I could read through her letters....

[jubilance1922]

Originally posted by honeychile
I'm using my pledge sister's Muslim/assumed name, as her family wants to stay in contact with her sons.

Sarai met a man from Malaysia while in college, and they became engaged. He asked her to meet his family, and bought her a plane ticket to Malaysia. Once she got there (and I'm not going to pretend that I know the complete details here), she was told that she couldn't leave Malaysia without a visa, and to get a visa, she had to be married, to get married, she had to convert to Islam. They got married. Her new husband was a broadcaster, very well known, and they had a very luxurious lifestyle. Townhouse in Kuala Lampur, a MAJOR house in the "suburbs", a country house in Viet Nam, several nice cars - the whole package. Yet, she felt the constrictions, and she felt that she had been tricked into the marriage - even though she loved her husband.

They had a son, and at that time, they agreed that an American education was far superior to that of Malaysia, so they would buy a house in America, so their son (and future children) could go to Amerian schools, with Sarai with them. They had three more children, but one died young.

Fast forward to when the son turned six. Sarai asked when they were going to go house hunting, so their son could start school in America. The husband announced that he had changed his mind, and they were going to remain in Malaysia. At this point, she had not seen her family in 8 years. They argued, and at some point, he locked her in a room with no windows. The next day, with the "holy men" present, he executed her. He is considered a hero, a real family man.

As I said, I cannot provide the particulars, as her family wants to maintain contact with Sarai's children. I spoke to her a couple times while she was still alive & in Malaysia, and she made it clear that her husband only used his religion when it was to his advantage - he had alcohol & other things not permitted by the Quran. Towards her end, her letters became more and more urgent, until the last one, which was smuggled out. Along the very edges of this small letters, she had written in code: "Don't EVER let anything come between you and American citizenship! You don't know what it's like, to not even be able to go to the Embassy for help, just because the country you're in doesn't consider you an American anymore!" She said more, but some of it is private.

That's the gist of it. Our chapter's Spirit Award is named after her, as Sarai was one of the lovable & beautiful young women most of us ever met. If one person is saved from harm by the telling of her story, I will feel justified.

This is an incredibly sad story.

I have a question though...what is saving someone from harm? Not allowing them to marry Muslims? Because EVERY religion has fanatics that practice their religion incorrectly and twist it for their own personal gain. Islam shouldn't be signaled out.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by jubilance1922
This is an incredibly sad story.

I have a question though...what is saving someone from harm? Not allowing them to marry Muslims? Because EVERY religion has fanatics that practice their religion incorrectly and twist it for their own personal gain. Islam shouldn't be signaled out.

You can determine what is and isn't incorrect?

Funny how such a large number of mistakes and "incorrectness" happens with the blessing of learned and powerful religious figures then.

-Rudey

[jubilance1922]

Originally posted by Rudey
You can determine what is and isn't incorrect?

Funny how such a large number of mistakes and "incorrectness" happens with the blessing of learned and powerful religious figures then.

-Rudey

Rudey, this is a serious response, so I hope I get one back.

For me, the Quran is my guide, it tells me how to practice my religion correctly. If I'm prohibited from doing something by the Quran, but I do it anyway, then that means that I'm not practicing my religion correctly.

NO man is perfect, and the only one who can truly judge someone is God, and he will on Judgement Day. Whether another human gives his "blessing" on something is irrelevant.

I have a serious question now. You seem determined to point out the "large number of mistakes and 'incorrectness'" in Islam. Do you have a personal vendetta against organized religion, or only this one? I ask because I have a lot of problems with Christianity, but I don't post everytime someone beats children under the name of Christ or when a priest molests a child. It serves me no purpose in my own faith to down someone else's religion. I'm saying this in all sincerity, it truly hurts my heart that almost everyday I log on GC and have to have my faith attacked. You may not want to know, but not Muslims are the way that you try to protray them.

I'm sure you're going to have some snappy comeback, which is fine, but my purpose was to really try to engage you in a serious conversation, not to be mean to you or berate you. If you would feel more confortable having this conversation privately, you can pm me.

[Rudey]

On Organized Religion:
They say that religion is the opiate of the masses. I'm not one of the masses but I tend to agree with the statement. I don't trust people without faith and I don't trust people of the masses. But I believe in the freedoms and the progress the world has made through religion (abolishment of slavery in the US, etc.). How's that for the generality of my views on religion?

Yes, no man is perfect. I agree with that.

On Islam:
However, how am I attacking Islam by posting a truth or a fact? Perhaps what bothers you is that I am able to find more "truths and facts" on Islam to post than I am on other religions. But what is that a function of? Perhaps it's my interest in the middle east. Maybe, more than likely, it's a function of the fact that every day there is more and more news about Muslims and Arabs that either support or partake in awful acts of violence. There is very little in the news about priests and molestations these days but there sure as heck was news when Muslim terrorists attacked Bali. If there were no news, I'd have little to comment on the topic I suppose.

And most people are tired of the "Islam is a religion of peace" or the "these guys are wrong" speech. No major organized religion is a religion of peace. None. Mohammed himself fought and killed. And, again, it seems that there is a very large portion of the Muslim world that interprets the Qu'ran differently from you with the guidance of Muslim leaders (financed through US ally Saudi Arabia) and this is something that can't be ignored. Why do I see large protests against the war in Iraq in Muslim countries but no protests against the fact that Sunni Muslims are massacring Shite Muslims? Perhaps someone will now say "Islam is a religion of peace" and we can forget that.

I don't know how to fix things, but neither denial nor empty words will ever help.

-Rudey

Originally posted by jubilance1922
Rudey, this is a serious response, so I hope I get one back.

For me, the Quran is my guide, it tells me how to practice my religion correctly. If I'm prohibited from doing something by the Quran, but I do it anyway, then that means that I'm not practicing my religion correctly.

NO man is perfect, and the only one who can truly judge someone is God, and he will on Judgement Day. Whether another human gives his "blessing" on something is irrelevant.

I have a serious question now. You seem determined to point out the "large number of mistakes and 'incorrectness'" in Islam. Do you have a personal vendetta against organized religion, or only this one? I ask because I have a lot of problems with Christianity, but I don't post everytime someone beats children under the name of Christ or when a priest molests a child. It serves me no purpose in my own faith to down someone else's religion. I'm saying this in all sincerity, it truly hurts my heart that almost everyday I log on GC and have to have my faith attacked. You may not want to know, but not Muslims are the way that you try to protray them.

I'm sure you're going to have some snappy comeback, which is fine, but my purpose was to really try to engage you in a serious conversation, not to be mean to you or berate you. If you would feel more confortable having this conversation privately, you can pm me.

[Lindz928]

Jubilance, I have an honest question for you.... Is the Quran written as vaguely as the Bible is? Or does it list specifically what you can and cannot do? I ask because I know that the Bible can be read to say almost anything that you want it to say. I am honestly wondering if the Quran is written in a similar manner, and can be interpreted in different ways.

[Lindz928]

Originally posted by Rudey
On Organized Religion:
They say that religion is the opiate of the masses. I'm not one of the masses but I tend to agree with the statement. I don't trust people without faith and I don't trust people of the masses. But I believe in the freedoms and the progress the world has made through religion (abolishment of slavery in the US, etc.). How's that for the generality of my views on religion?

-Rudey

Ok, now a serious question for you, Rudey. How do you feel about faith without organized religion? Your statement about not trusting people without faith and also not trusting the masses seems to lead in that direction.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Lindz928
Jubilance, I have an honest question for you.... Is the Quran written as vaguely as the Bible is? Or does it list specifically what you can and cannot do? I ask because I know that the Bible can be read to say almost anything that you want it to say. I am honestly wondering if the Quran is written in a similar manner, and can be interpreted in different ways.

I'm not Jubilance but

There are different sects and sects within sects of Islam because they interpret it differently.

Muslim leaders differ on their views because they interpret it differently.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
On Islam:
However, how am I attacking Islam by posting a truth or a fact? Perhaps what bothers you is that I am able to find more "truths and facts" on Islam to post than I am on other religions. But what is that a function of? Perhaps it's my interest in the middle east. Maybe, more than likely, it's a function of the fact that every day there is more and more news about Muslims and Arabs that either support or partake in awful acts of violence. There is very little in the news about priests and molestations these days but there sure as heck was news when Muslim terrorists attacked Bali. If there were no news, I'd have little to comment on the topic I suppose.

And most people are tired of the "Islam is a religion of peace" or the "these guys are wrong" speech. No major organized religion is a religion of peace. None. Mohammed himself fought and killed. And, again, it seems that there is a very large portion of the Muslim world that interprets the Qu'ran differently from you with the guidance of Muslim leaders (financed through US ally Saudi Arabia) and this is something that can't be ignored. Why do I see large protests against the war in Iraq in Muslim countries but no protests against the fact that Sunni Muslims are massacring Shite Muslims? Perhaps someone will now say "Islam is a religion of peace" and we can forget that.

I don't know how to fix things, but neither denial nor empty words will ever help.

-Rudey

I think that is a rather weak arguement - basically because there is just as much religous related/motivated violence out there in the news, but you seem to highlight really only those stories that feature Islam.

For example if you log onto Netscape today you can see a story about a Catholic priest commiting sucide after killing two people at a funeral home... or how about the sectarian violence that flared up last month in Ireland? The thing is Islam is as much a religion of peace as Christianity is - radicals and hatemongers can hide within the folds of any religion really, it just important that you realize that the vocal/active minority does not always represent the majority or the true faith.

The question is of course is your fixation on the "negative" stories featuring Islam a product of the us & them or the easy identification of Muslims as the "other" - or is there another not so sub-consious reason?

[Rudey]

Funny how many times I have to correct the lies you post or the accusations you make.

My argument is strong and that is why there were so many stories of collective shame written by Muslim journalists following a school siege.

-Rudey
--PS I don't read Netscape; the newspapers I read tend to have more substance.

Originally posted by RACooper
I think that is a rather weak arguement - basically because there is just as much religous related/motivated violence out there in the news, but you seem to highlight really only those stories that feature Islam.

For example if you log onto Netscape today you can see a story about a Catholic priest commiting sucide after killing two people at a funeral home... or how about the sectarian violence that flared up last month in Ireland? The thing is Islam is as much a religion of peace as Christianity is - radicals and hatemongers can hide within the folds of any religion really, it just important that you realize that the vocal/active minority does not always represent the majority or the true faith.

The question is of course is your fixation on the "negative" stories featuring Islam a product of the us & them or the easy identification of Muslims as the "other" - or is there another not so sub-consious reason?

[jubilance1922]

Originally posted by Lindz928
Jubilance, I have an honest question for you.... Is the Quran written as vaguely as the Bible is? Or does it list specifically what you can and cannot do? I ask because I know that the Bible can be read to say almost anything that you want it to say. I am honestly wondering if the Quran is written in a similar manner, and can be interpreted in different ways.

I think Rudey's answer to this question is sufficient. There are some things that are spelled out exactly, and other things that are more figurative. An example of figurative is the topic of wearing a headscarf. The Quran simply says that woman (and men too) should cover their modesty. So that is where the debate comes in, because different people have different definitions of "modesty".

[Lindz928]

Originally posted by jubilance1922
I think Rudey's answer to this question is sufficient. There are some things that are spelled out exactly, and other things that are more figurative. An example of figurative is the topic of wearing a headscarf. The Quran simply says that woman (and men too) should cover their modesty. So that is where the debate comes in, because different people have different definitions of "modesty".

Thanks!

[jubilance1922]

Originally posted by Rudey
On Organized Religion:
They say that religion is the opiate of the masses. I'm not one of the masses but I tend to agree with the statement. I don't trust people without faith and I don't trust people of the masses. But I believe in the freedoms and the progress the world has made through religion (abolishment of slavery in the US, etc.). How's that for the generality of my views on religion?

Yes, no man is perfect. I agree with that.

On Islam:
However, how am I attacking Islam by posting a truth or a fact? Perhaps what bothers you is that I am able to find more "truths and facts" on Islam to post than I am on other religions. But what is that a function of? Perhaps it's my interest in the middle east. Maybe, more than likely, it's a function of the fact that every day there is more and more news about Muslims and Arabs that either support or partake in awful acts of violence. There is very little in the news about priests and molestations these days but there sure as heck was news when Muslim terrorists attacked Bali. If there were no news, I'd have little to comment on the topic I suppose.

And most people are tired of the "Islam is a religion of peace" or the "these guys are wrong" speech. No major organized religion is a religion of peace. None. Mohammed himself fought and killed. And, again, it seems that there is a very large portion of the Muslim world that interprets the Qu'ran differently from you with the guidance of Muslim leaders (financed through US ally Saudi Arabia) and this is something that can't be ignored. Why do I see large protests against the war in Iraq in Muslim countries but no protests against the fact that Sunni Muslims are massacring Shite Muslims? Perhaps someone will now say "Islam is a religion of peace" and we can forget that.

I don't know how to fix things, but neither denial nor empty words will ever help.

-Rudey

Thank you for a serious answer. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But I just want you to know, I and those that I associate with, truly are peaceful. Those who commit murders and atrocities will have to answer for their actions on their Judgement Day. I can ony try to walk the path of good and pray for those who stray.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by jubilance1922
Thank you for a serious answer. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But I just want you to know, I and those that I associate with, truly are peaceful. Those who commit murders and atrocities will have to answer for their actions on their Judgement Day. I can ony try to walk the path of good and pray for those who stray.

I had no doubts about you to begin with.

Have a good Ramadan.

-Rudey