Princeton's Attitude

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by adpiucf
Would it not behoove the Greeks to go to deferred rush in a gesture of good will relations with the university?

I don't think so. Why should the GLO's give up position to the school when the school is hostile to them?

The best thing that the GLOs can do is to grow, develop their alumni, and then have their alumni approach Princeton's Board of Trustees with a united front.

Originally posted by ktsnake
Is there data out there that really suggests that all fraternities and sororities are harmful to a student's academic success at Princeton?

I doubt that there is any data, either way. The GLOs are underground so its not easy to compile grades.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Janerz222
Grrr... After I simmer down and collect my thoughts, I'll be writing a letter to the Prince and President Tilghman and Dean Deignan. (I am a Theta alumna and a Princeton alumna.)

I'll post a copy of my letter on this thread, in case it's of interest to anyone.

A few quick points, from my undergraduate experience at P'ton: the eating clubs lose NOTHING from having GLOs on campus. Almost all GLO members also belong to eating clubs. Don't get me started on the issue of narrowing your social circle that early in your P'ton career - GLOs if anything widen it, and so many celebrated P'ton traditions narrow it much more. (singing groups, anyone?)

Off to take a few deep breaths. . .

How organized are the alumni of the fraternities and sororities? That's where you'll make real headway. The GLOs have been on Princeton for about 20 years now, so the alumni should be entering their donation years. If the GLO alumni are organized, they should bundle their donations together for a few years, to show the school the financial clout of GLO alumni. After a few years of doing this, if the school is not willing to sit down and talk, in good faith, the GLO alumni should with hold all donations for a year.

[wrigley]

Isn't Greek life at Princeton a fairly recent addition to their campus? A friends brother graduated from there in '88 and all he talked about were the eating clubs.

Perhaps the Administration is feeling the pressure from the older wealthy alumni who donate and who may not agree with Greek Life's influence on campus.

How can the chapters exist but not be recognized by the university?

[Janerz222]

PhiPsiRuss,
I actually think more Princetonians feel a closer tie to their eating clubs after graduation (than to their GLO), partly because of the physical fact of the clubhouse (GLOs aren't housed). My gut is that the majority (not all) of Princeton Greek alums feel loyalty and ties to their _chapter_ but don't feel huge ties to their inter/national organizations. In terms of monetary giving as alumni, I think people are more moved to give to a physical institution they can enjoy when they return to campus and relive the sites, sounds, even stale-beer smells that were so much a part of their Princeton days.
This is just my opinion, as a Princeton alum. I really don't think the clubs lose or will lose anything from the GLOs. Actually, I think the GLOs in many ways reinforce loyalty to the eating clubs, as often many members of the same GLO will join the same eating club (effectively doubling those members' loyalty to the eating club).

Wrigley,
The fraternities were there very early in Princeton's history, then started to come back in the early 80's. Theta was the first sorority there, founded in 1983. We didn't have a lot of visibility until Pi Phi joined us in 1990/91 and we founded the Panhellenic. While non-recognition definitely presented some hurdles in the early years (no access to mailing lists, having to pay for meeting facilities, etc.), the lack of University recognition actually works quite well. It means a lot of work on the part of alum advisers and the college Panhellenic (I can't speak for the fraternities), but a lot of autonomy.

[madmax]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
How organized are the alumni of the fraternities and sororities? That's where you'll make real headway. The GLOs have been on Princeton for about 20 years now, so the alumni should be entering their donation years. If the GLO alumni are organized, they should bundle their donations together for a few years, to show the school the financial clout of GLO alumni. After a few years of doing this, if the school is not willing to sit down and talk, in good faith, the GLO alumni should with hold all donations for a year.

The first fraternities at Princeton started in the mid 1800's but they were always overshadowed by the eating clubs. Eric Conard was probably there so he might have some insight.

[madmax]

Janerz222.

Where are the eating clubs? I drive through Princeton for work and Im curious what they look like. How do you get to them from Nassau St?

[Janerz222]

Ok, long post ahead. . . Here's the letter I just submitted to the editor of the Daily Princetonian and snail mailed to the university adminstrators. (I did include my full name, class year, and mailing address, which I'll obviously not include here.)


18 September 2004
Dear Editor,

So, Dean Deignan and President Tilghman think that Greek-letter organizations “prematurely narrow” students’ “circles of acquaintances and experiences” [Frosh cautioned against going Greek, September 16, 2004]. I’m curious–did incoming students and their parents also receive admonitions about joining Princeton’s athletic teams, singing groups, and religious or political organizations?

Freshmen, what a relief it must be to know that the University has claimed the sole right to narrow those circles for you by assigning you to a residential college!

As an alumna of both Princeton and Kappa Alpha Theta women’s fraternity, I’d like to disabuse our current adminstration of such notions.

Belonging to a Greek-letter organization does not remove you from the Princeton experience–it can involve you more fully into it, and into the world beyond FitzRandolph Gate. Far from narrowing their members’ social circles, fraternities and sororities offer the chance for friendship and support from members of all 4 undergraduate classes, all residential colleges, all departments of academic study, every imaginable creative and athletic discipline, as well as varied ethnicities, religions, and political beliefs. Greek letter organizations are often at their best at institutions like Princeton, where strength of academic purpose; ethnic, religious, political, and geographical diversity; and individual involvement in myriad interests and activities are the hallmark of the student body. I would argue that there is no other organization on campus that brings its members as much opportunity to experience the diversity of Princeton than a fraternity or sorority. Not narrowed to a particular philosophy, not focused on one talent, not limited to underclassmen or upperclassmen, not bounded by one academic area– Greek-letter organizations encompass them all, and through personal relationships, their members can experience them all.

It’s fine with Dean Deignan that Susie Freshman join a singing group that will consume her for four years in an incredibly tight-knit, exclusive, single-focus, and insanely small group of women, but the Dean will proactively encourage her NOT to even research Kappa Kappa Gamma or Delta Sigma Theta because she’ll be “limiting” her Princeton experience? (Let’s ignore the fact that most fraternities and sororities have multi-faceted membership programs which encompass academic success, community service, personal development, and leadership training as well as hundreds of thousands of dollars in scholarships and grants for undergraduates and graduates.) I must be getting old, because I just can’t see the logic. Forgive my cynicism, but I don’t think we’re hearing the real issue the administration has with fraternities and sororities. Is it the “not invented here” mentality that something which didn’t originate at Princeton and exists beyond it is not worthy?

Kappa Alpha Theta brought things to my Princeton experience for which I’m eternally grateful: some of my best friends (but not all of them); extremely challenging and rewarding leadership opportunities; close relationships with local alumnae advisers of all ages; and yes, some of the best memories and events of my four years at Old Nassau. Furthermore, as this year’s freshmen will learn in 4 short years, life does and must involve people and ideas and institutions outside of Princeton, New Jersey. Theta has done nothing but add to the benefits of my Princeton education. Moving across the country immediately after graduation, I found a large group of Thetas, alumnae from schools across the US and Canada and of all ages, welcoming me. I have held rewarding and challenging leadership positions within an international organization of over 150,000 women. I continue to learn and grow and benefit because of becoming a Theta at Princeton 15 years ago.

The Princeton I know and cherish was not in the business of saving her students from their own decisions. It makes me sad to think that is where she seems to be now. To be certain, students face many new situations and opportunities during their Princeton years. The process of making decisions and choices is arguably more important than the decisions and choices themselves. Even those choices which we would change in hindsight teach us more than we can gain from a classroom or lab. The Princeton of my youth allowed me to revel in, grapple with, deal with the consequences of, and ultimately learn from my own choices.

Had I allowed Princeton to decide for me that Theta was “too narrow” a social circle, I would not have met one of my best friends. We’re not in the same graduating class. She’s Jewish, I’m Catholic. She was an engineer, I studied art history. She lived in Butler (poor thing), and I in Mathey. Theta is the only thing that brought us together at Princeton and allowed us to get to know each other well, and my life would be less without having her in it. Nor would I have been challenged by the feminist, two years my senior, whose views I found remarkably radical (and which, surprisingly, are very close the views I have now). I would not have met the amazing women, from college undergrads to octogenarians, who have taught me, challenged me, supported me, and become cherished friends throughout my years of volunteering in the leadership of Kappa Alpha Theta since graduation.

Theta only added to my Princeton experience, and I am far from unique in that regard. I would sincerely encourage Dean Deignan, President Tilghman, and other members of the administration to educate themselves about the national and international Greek-letter organizations represented at Princeton–their aims, histories, spheres of influence–as well as the local histories of the Princeton chapters. I urge them to involve Princeton sorority alumnae and fraternity alumni in their research and discussions. I know they will be surprised both at our numbers and at the high regard we have for our organizations. Being a part of our organizations has enhanced the Princeton experience for most of us and has made our memories fonder–and our pockets deeper come Annual Giving season.

I, for one, will be considering supporting Theta with more dollars than Princeton come Annual Giving time. I’d rather support an organization that strives to empower her members, not make decisions for them.

[IvySpice]

what gives the admin the right to tell freshmen to do something

Well, it's a private school -- they can tell the freshmen to do whatever they want, including what church to join, if it came to that. The wisdom of that decision is open to debate, but there's no question that it is their prerogative to do it if they choose.

I think the attack on Greek groups, but not eating clubs, is just plain old pragmatism. The impression I get is that the administration is no fan of the eating clubs, either, but that it is unwilling/unable to tackle a system so ingrained and that involves such an overwhelming percentage of alumni. They want to move toward the Harvard/Yale 4-year residential college model, which isn't terribly compatible with the eating club system, and which may slowly starve it to death (they hope). They can't take that approach with Greek groups, so they're taking direct aim instead.

[Janerz222]

madmax,

All of the clubs except Terrace are on Prospect Avenue (affectionately known as The Street). Prospect is off Washington, two blocks from Nassau. Terrace is on Washington, just past Prospect.

You can find a campus map here. The clubs are the buildings on Prospect in white on the map: Campus, Tower, Colonial, Quad, Cap & Gown, Tiger Inn (TI), Ivy, Cottage, Cloister, and Charter (plus Terrace on Washington).

[Tom Earp]

Could not help myself but send a response to the Editor in The Greek Bashing as it were.


Regarding 'Letters to the Editor' (Friday, September 17, 2004):

I for one having been a member of the Greek community for 40 years am appaled at the blatant disregard of the good that Greek Organizations do for not only the members of each, but the Campus and charitable organizations of the commumity.

It seems That Princeton holds itself above many great Institutions that have began a change on their campi with regards to Greeks.

Does Princeton deem to hold itself in higher esteem than many other finer Colleges of Education?

Does Princeton feel that the only thing to be derived from College is grades and a diploma alone?

What Greek Organizations do create is create organizational skills, running and operating a group of people much as running a business or interacting with people after College.

The bonds made in Greek Organizations are much stronger than any College bonds can ever be.

Thomas G. Earp
Lambda Chi Alpha
Lambda Chi Chapter # 1


Maybe they ought to call Princeton Snob U?

God, Ostriches dont have their heads so far down in the sand.

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by Tom Earp

The bonds made in Greek Organizations are much stronger than any College bonds can ever be.

Not always true. My bonds to Brown are stronger (as I've learned recently in the face of tragedy) than my Alpha Chi Omega bonds were, are, and ever will be.

If my school were to disband Greek Life, I wouldn't feel that sad. It didn't make my college experience.

[Glitter650]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
[B
If my school were to disband Greek Life, I wouldn't feel that sad. It didn't make my college experience. [/B]

I would be devastated if my college were to disband greek life. My experience as a phi sig basically was my college experience. I transferred, never lived on campus, and attended a largely commuter campus, so meeting people was difficult and I felt out of the loop of the university. My friends and sisters in my chapter (and my friends from other chapters) were the ones that opened my campus to me because they could tell me about things that I may not have heard of otherwise, for example my sister who lived in the dorm always knew about the free sneak preview movies that come to campus sometimes becuase they always posted the info in the dorm first, another sister always dragged me to athletic events and such. It also made it easier to be inovolved in other things on campus because I always had sisters supporting me.

[IvySpice]

It seems That Princeton holds itself above many great Institutions that have began a change on their campi with regards to Greeks.
Does Princeton deem to hold itself in higher esteem than many other finer Colleges of Education?

Hee hee. I'm sorry, Tom, I had to giggle at this...if you've spent any time at Princeton or Harvard or Yale, you'll know that the answer is HELL YES, and it's no secret. The administrators at these schools firmly believe that what their school is offering is extremely special and perhaps peerless. The "many great institutions" you refer to do not include the small handful of institutions that Princeton sees as its competition, all of which are more or less hostile to Greeks and moving further in that direction. The fact that many other excellent universities thrive in harmony with enormous and powerful Greek systems just isn't relevant to them; they think drawing a parallel between the University of Illinois and Princeton is like comparing apples to oranges, or maybe even apples to diamonds. Frankly, chances are good that the university decision-makers we're talking about would be horrified at the thought of Princeton becoming more like Penn or Cornell (Ivy League schools with large, housed Greek populations).

Note: I'm not talking about the student population here; the students are all over the map about this. But no question, the administrators think they're the creme de la creme, and the newspaper editors are going to have a bit of a laugh over your shocked reaction to that fact.

[Tom Earp]

IvySpice, I hope they have a Huge laugh, but also hope that they realize that there are many of us who have had the pleasure to go through and become Members of Greek Organizations.

Opening doors because of a Schools name can be beneficial, but book learning doesnt make a whole person.

One has to learn many other things, such as how to work with and within a people structure.

Guess I am glad I did not attend a Snob U type School!

[pinkflamingo]

Yes, it's true...I lead a very sheltered life. What the heck is an eating club?