Obey? Submit? What do you think??

[Eclipse]

Lots of good comments here!

When I got married back in '96 (y'all my FIVE year wedding anniversary is in one week!! YAH!), I was adamant about not having obey in my vows. I am very stubborn and had the "how you gone tell me what to do? I'm grown!" attitude. LOL Anyway, as I grow and learn, I understand more of God's command in this area and if I were getting married today, I would say something like "I vow to submit to you as Christ submitted to His Heavenly Father" and I know he would not have a problem saying something like "I vow to love you as Christ loved the Church". I DO see my husband as the head of the household and see one of my most important jobs as praying for him. I pray that God gives him discerment and Godly wisdom and the He orders his (my husband's) steps on a daily basis. Now I personally think that a man's responsibility in a Godly household is tougher that the woman's. He has to, as I think tickled pink mentioned, literally lay down his life for me! I once heard a minister say that he can't let his wife out serve him, because then he would not be the priest of his household! Jesus came as one who serves (see Luke 22:26-27) and the man should follow Jesus' model in serving his wife. Uh huh, that's what I'm talking about! Since my husband knows that I am opinionated and am, if I say so myself, intelligent, he wants me to be included in the decision making process. If he is being lead by God, willing to lay down his life for me, and trying to outserve me, I am not worried about obeying/submitting, etc. I'm just trying to praise God for him!!

Of course neither one of us gets it right all of the time (or heck even most of the time, but I figure by about anniversary number 25 we should be real close! ), but that's where grace and mercy comes in.

[This message has been edited by Eclipse (edited April 20, 2001).]

[ManndingoNUPE]

I believe that my mother said it best,"I will follow the man, but I am not going to follow a fool!" She wasn't saying this to say that my dad was fool, but God gave each of us, both women and men the intelligence to make decisions. Now in my family, my mother makes the money decisions and my father follows. It is all about finding out what your strengths and weakness are and allowing your mate to take the lead on things that they are more suited to.

I know that from my past relationships, there have been areas that I was not the expert in. I will always submit to the will of my lady, especailly if I know that she has our common interest in mind.

Like I said, both parties should sumbit to the other based on personal strengths and weakness.

I personally will not have submit or obey in my vows because I tend to be more attracted to strong women.

MN

[loviest95]

Originally posted by Eclipse:
Lots of good comments here!

I DO see my husband as the head of the household and see one of my most important jobs as praying for him. I pray that God gives him discerment and Godly wisdom and the He orders his (my husband's) steps on a daily basis. Now I personally think that a man's responsibility in a Godly household is tougher that the woman's. He has to, as I think tickled pink mentioned, literally lay down his life for me! I once heard a minister say that he can't let his wife out serve him, because then he would not be the priest of his household! Jesus came as one who serves (see Luke 22:26-27) and the man should follow Jesus' model in serving his wife. Uh huh, that's what I'm talking about! Since my husband knows that I am opinionated and am, if I say so myself, intelligent, he wants me to be included in the decision making process. If he is being lead by God, willing to lay down his life for me, and trying to outserve me, I am not worried about obeying/submitting, etc. I'm just trying to praise God for him!!

Of course neither one of us gets it right all of the time (or heck even most of the time, but I figure by about anniversary number 25 we should be real close! ), but that's where grace and mercy comes in.

[This message has been edited by Eclipse (edited April 20, 2001).]

This is exactly how I feel and I know it can be hard sometimes.. I am in the process of learning that there are some issues that I should let my hubby and God handle without my input-- but sorors it is so hard to keep quiet sometimes but GOD is working with me

------------------
IVY in my HAND-- AKA in my HEART

[This message has been edited by loviest95 (edited April 20, 2001).]

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by sweet aka:
I like that hopefulprospective...I haven't found a man that would say that in the vows also!!

I believe in equal submission....I will obey as long he is being led by God. Alot of men are not loving their wives as Christ love the Church!! So, as long as he has my best interest at heart and not his own; I can adjust to the submission thing. That love thing is powerful, and if you really find someone that loves to the extent of laying down their life for you, You have sincere love!! That love takes time....too many guys are insignificately using that scripture.

God expects women to submit to MEN; NOT BOYs!! Trust me, that is where I draw the line. If you are still a boy, then I don't believe God is expecting that submission. God defines a MAN, and the world describes a Boy. Even Jesse Jackson could't fully obey the scripture.

So, Does God expect Mrs. Jackson to submit to him???? This is where I get real messed up....Help me out someone.....!!

I hear what you are saying! This is one I have struggled with as well. Here's my take on it. When God told man to love his wife as Christ loves the church, he did not put conditions on it. Think about it, Christ loves us even when we are at our most unloveable! Likewise, I don't think God put any conditions on 'submitting'. No "If...then"; know what I mean: My relationship with God is my own. I have to obey him first, even when my husband is being a doo-doo head (that's when it really gets hard! ) If he's not listening to God and taking us down the wrong path then he has some 'splaining to do (see what had happen wuz) when he gets to heaven, while me, on the other hand, will sail right on by them Pearly Gates! LOL

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by loviest95:
it is so hard to keep quiet sometimes but GOD is working with me

Ain't that the truth!!! Pray for me and I will pray for you.

Eclipse

[Shalom2U]

Originally posted by Eclipse:
I hear what you are saying! This is one I have struggled with as well. Here's my take on it. When God told man to love his wife as Christ loves the church, he did not put conditions on it. Think about it, Christ loves us even when we are at our most unloveable! Likewise, I don't think God put any conditions on 'submitting'. No "If...then"; know what I mean: My relationship with God is my own. I have to obey him first, even when my husband is being a doo-doo head (that's when it really gets hard! ) If he's not listening to God and taking us down the wrong path then he has some 'splaining to do (see what had happen wuz) when he gets to heaven, while me, on the other hand, will sail right on by them Pearly Gates! LOL

Shalom Eclipse~

"doo-doo head" and "(see what had happen wuz)" --- I wonder if your husband and my husband are twins? LOL!

Shalom~

[Soulful Soror]

I discussed this very topic with some co-workers of mine. I (contrary to popular belief) have no qualms about submitting to my husband (when I find someone that is qualified for the job ...I'm still interviewing people-LOL). However, what these mens (I said mens on purpose) need to remember is that in the Bible it's also mentioned that God is the husband to the Church. Therefore, think of it like God wants the Church's total submission to Him. He, in turn, blesses & makes VERY sure the Church (His wife) is well taken care of....So, it's not suppose to be like "the kitchen & the bedroom, Florida" discussion that Florida & James Evans had on Good Times. That's just the way I interpret it.

[Virtuous Woman]

Tickledpink: I agree with you completely!

Rain Man: I almost agree with you. I don't believe that women were created as "lesser beings", but instead women were created to fulfill different needs than men. Like you said men provide the food and women provide the meals, I think we all can agree that neither one of those tasks is greater or lesser.

I think Loveliest95 summed it up perfectly. If we (women AND men) have a personal relationship with GOD FIRST, when we meet and marry that "special someone", our relationship would automatically mirror the relationship that Christ has with the Church.

The WORD: It's tight but it's right!!

[This message has been edited by Virtuous Woman (edited April 20, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Virtuous Woman (edited April 20, 2001).]

[sweet aka]

I like that hopefulprospective...I haven't found a man that would say that in the vows also!!

I believe in equal submission....I will obey as long he is being led by God. Alot of men are not loving their wives as Christ love the Church!! So, as long as he has my best interest at heart and not his own; I can adjust to the submission thing. That love thing is powerful, and if you really find someone that loves to the extent of laying down their life for you, You have sincere love!! That love takes time....too many guys are insignificately using that scripture.

God expects women to submit to MEN; NOT BOYs!! Trust me, that is where I draw the line. If you are still a boy, then I don't believe God is expecting that submission. God defines a MAN, and the world describes a Boy. Even Jesse Jackson could't fully obey the scripture.

So, Does God expect Mrs. Jackson to submit to him???? This is where I get real messed up....Help me out someone.....!!

Originally posted by HopefulProspective:
When my husband and I got married, we discussed the use of "obey" in our vows. Simply put, it was agreed upon if I had to say "OBEY", he would also. So needless to say, "OBEY" was left out of our vows.

[VctoriasSecrt]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82:
"My people hear not and continue to want, for they are a stiff-necked and rebellious people" quote supplied by God when the Hebrews continued to wander aimlessly in the desert for their constant disobedience to the Will of God.

Many of you are letting selfish Pride (which is one of the greatest blessing-blockers around)blur your vision on the correct interpretaion of those words. So many women, Black women in particular, read these passages in a feminist manner when feminism (when used to deliberately ignore God's Word)is of the world and in direct rebellion to the word of God.

I'm not saying any of you are wrong for your thoughts and beliefs, but along with Shalom's post, Tickled Pink gave the most correct interpretation of the words obey and submit. The words themselves may sound demeaning to a feminist but when taken in their proper context( which is by decree of the God that many of us claim to serve), they provide the foundation of a harmonious union. If you are going to deliberately ignore the Word of God, why ask Him to sanction the marriage in His house (a Church) and with his Vessel for bringing His Word (a Minister)?

I know many Sistas have had to fight the battle for so long without a man worthy of obeying or submitting to(in the Christian since, not abusive) and that is the fault of the Black Man.

Woman of Virtue: there is no one passage per se, but the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit speak on it often.

BTW, I don't want "obey" and "submit" in my vows either. I prefer words more user-friendly words.

are you impying that a woman cannot accurately interpret the bible absent of feminist ideological influence? i am not a feminist, yet i strongly disagree with your interpretation...not because i am a woman...strong headed...prideful...but because anyone that has taken to SERIOUS study of biblical text knows that there are MANY inacuracies in the king james version of the bible as it stands today...both male and female biblical scholars alike will attest to that... gods will? or mans interpretation of gods will relayed to you by man and further reinterpreted by you, man absent of divine inspiration and solely based on blind trust that the person relaying it to you is accuarate in their interpretation...



[This message has been edited by VctoriasSecrt (edited April 23, 2001).]

[AKAtude]

Oh, yeah. My fiance and I had our first pre-marital counseling session Saturday afternoon. Of course, we went over this very same thing with the pastor. All I have to say is that I behaved myself.

[VctoriasSecrt]

sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do...

[Shalom2U]

AKAtude, you did WHAT? Behaved? !

Shalom AKAtude!

[VctoriasSecrt]

sit boo boo...good wife gotta do what you gotta do ...till after the wedding...hee hee...then he'll find out who's house it is... that's why this one ain't no where near married yet cause i can't even fake like i don't know what the deal is...

[This message has been edited by VctoriasSecrt (edited April 23, 2001).]

[Discogoddess]

For those of you who believe that the husband is the head of the household, what does that mean? What is he head of? Does he make the final decisions of the household? Does his vote count more than the wife's or as a tie breaker in a disagreement? Does he make the "big" decisions, concerning money, where to live, etc.? What happens if he makes a decision that has a negative effect on him and/or the wife/family--do you keep quiet or voice an opinion? What do you do when he wanders away from his Christian walk and you (the wife) stay on yours? Do you still view him as the head and follow his decision/lead?

I'm curious to know what exactly we're speaking of when we use these terms...