Obey? Submit? What do you think??

[CodeBlue_R3]

Hello all,

Well I'm 100% christian and possibly a future First Lady-yes I'm dating a preacher.

I've always planned on making my own vows for my wedding though.

[SweetestDiva]

Originally posted by tickledpink:
So, yes, He meant to submit, knowing that your husband would never knowingly do anything to steer you wrong or hurt you. So, I kept the word obey in there - because he also has a promise to keep.

And that's my 19.08 cents worth.
[This message has been edited by tickledpink (edited April 19, 2001).]

I agree wholeheartedly. A man who truly loves you, respects you, and who fears God will not expect you to demean or lower yourself in any way, which I think is the issue a lot of individuals have with the word "obey". Now if he's not a good man from the jump, that's a different story... then you might end up on Jerry wearing a dog collar or some of that craziness.

[VctoriasSecrt]

Originally posted by 1 Woman of Virtue:
I feel you, and I can hardly keep my opinion to myself...so i won't!

I don't think Victoria's Secret is saying the Bible is outdated for any century. Simply that when you look at the linguistic honesty in many translations, and MOST ESPECIALLY THE KING JAMES VERSION (which is believed by many Bible scholars to have the MOST mal-interpretations), what you read, is not what was said. And that in reading a verse, it is important to understand to the best of one's ability, what was going on at that time. For example, if a letter was written to a disobedient group of people, like the Corinthian's, we need to understand that Book of the Bible as a book of correction to some who had gotten out of hand. Or, where in Peter it says that a woman should not wear braided hair, but humility (or something like that), is Peter really saying you can't wear extensions or weave? Or is he trying to correct a problem of the sin of pride?
It is the context that is very important. Rainman, if it's that big of an issue for you, then I commend you on the fact that you will not compromise. But as far as I'm concerned, I don't believe that marriage relegates me to the position of being un-equal to my husband (to be that is!). So no, I will not use the word "obey" in my ceremony. I have one father on earth, and one in Heaven.

By the way, correct me (nicely, that is) if I'm wrong, but there isn't one passage of the Bible that is called "marriage ceremony" is there? Is there a scripture that says the wife says: "I will love, honor, and obey my husband"? Cuz if not, than it would seem to me that this is just another "tradition" that doesn't have real merit.

BTW, Vic's Secret, if that's not what you meant, didn't mean to stick my opinion in your mouth!

[This message has been edited by 1 Woman of Virtue (edited April 19, 2001).]

...i couldn't have put it better myself...

[Bobby Earl]

Originally posted by ManndingoNUPE:
As long as she promises to do what DL Hugley's wife wouldn't do in "The Brothers" we are ok. She don't have to obey, just hit a brother off, and I will do likewise.


Peace

MN

That's what um talkin bout. I gotta have sum of that in my life. Break me off! Get down on it like Kool in the Gang.

O. K. seriously, That Bible teaches many things but life sometimes teaches otherwise.
If a man wants a marriage to work with a (Y2K Ready) BLACK woman, he may wanna compromise.
Besides, personally I feel women are giving enough as it is just raising children on their own, and sometimes that's with a so called active partner. Just ask my mother about it...

It's not about submitting to another based on what the Bible says. It's about giving because you expect the same in return. It's a 2 way street. I know there is supposed to be a head of the household, but REAL BLACK women don't play that sh!$.

Just my two bits. I hope I didn't get it started. Hu ooh Hu ooh Hu ooh Hu oooh Get it started Hu ooh Hu ooh Hu ooh Hu Ooh.

Oh by the way, I missed all yall.

MN, waz up, Big Nupe? Halla at me. Um tryin to go to Klaves.



[This message has been edited by Bobby Earl (edited April 19, 2001).]

[VctoriasSecrt]

Originally posted by Shalom2U:
Shalom Everybody~

The word "obey" is used 69 times in scripture. Forty-one (41) of those times it comes from the Hebrew word "shama" meaning: to hear intelligently/with attention. Thirteen (13) of those times it comes from the Greek word "hupakouo" which means: to hear under (subordinate) i.e. to listen attentively.

Now in reference to marriage, the word "obey" is not used---the word "obedience" is used and it comes from the Greek word "hupotasso" which translate: to obey, to be under obedience, submit self unto. Scriptures where it is used and we sistahs are instructed to be in "obedience" are found in: 1 Peter 3:1 / 3:5 and
Titus 2:5.

I wanted to wait for more postings too, but I will say this, yes, I had, heck, I still do have trouble with "obey/obedience" and yes, it is something I'm working out and working on DAILY with my stubborn self, but I will admit this to my GreekChat family, in my studying GOD'S Word, I've noticed that whenever GOD used the word obey/obedience and the people followed through, it always had AWESOME results and blessings....HMMMM.

SWEETAKA, I ditto you and Tickledpink, you can get a AMEN from me.

Shalom~

...well just break it down shalom...

[toocute]

Originally posted by Shalom2U:
Shalom Everybody~

The word "obey" is used 69 times in scripture. Forty-one (41) of those times it comes from the Hebrew word "shama" meaning: to hear intelligently/with attention. Thirteen (13) of those times it comes from the Greek word "hupakouo" which means: to hear under (subordinate) i.e. to listen attentively.

Now in reference to marriage, the word "obey" is not used---the word "obedience" is used and it comes from the Greek word "hupotasso" which translate: to obey, to be under obedience, submit self unto. Scriptures where it is used and we sistahs are instructed to be in "obedience" are found in: 1 Peter 3:1 / 3:5 and
Titus 2:5.

I wanted to wait for more postings too, but I will say this, yes, I had, heck, I still do have trouble with "obey/obedience" and yes, it is something I'm working out and working on DAILY with my stubborn self, but I will admit this to my GreekChat family, in my studying GOD'S Word, I've noticed that whenever GOD used the word obey/obedience and the people followed through, it always had AWESOME results and blessings....HMMMM.

SWEETAKA, I ditto you and Tickledpink, you can get a AMEN from me. Shalom~

When I grow up...I wanna be like Shalom2U. You're awesome...break it down!

[pink_ace]

I want to begin by thanking Shalom2U for the interpretation. I have never even thought of that. Butanyway, I am one of the most stubborn people in the world; however, I wouldn't have a problem with the word "obey" in my vows. I would hope that the man that I marry would not want someone who would just "obey" his every "command." But rather, we would work together to come to understandings and respect each other's wishes.

[toocute]

Originally posted by Bobby Earl:
It's not about submitting to another based on what the Bible says. It's about giving because you expect the same in return. It's a 2 way street. I know there is supposed to be a head of the household, but REAL BLACK women don't play that sh!$.

BRAVO Bobby Earl!!! That's what I'm talking about.

Obey was NOT in my marriage vows and there was never a discussion about it. In fact my church (Baptist) doesn't use the word obey. My preacher did a sermon once (long time ago) about why he didn't use the term obey. I don't remember his exact words but I do remember the words "equal" and "partnership" being used.

My husband and I consult each other before making household decsions. I think SWEETAKA said something about sharing the power. That's what we do and it's all good. Three and a half years and still going.

[DoggyStyle82]

"My people hear not and continue to want, for they are a stiff-necked and rebellious people" quote supplied by God when the Hebrews continued to wander aimlessly in the desert for their constant disobedience to the Will of God.

Many of you are letting selfish Pride (which is one of the greatest blessing-blockers around)blur your vision on the correct interpretaion of those words. So many women, Black women in particular, read these passages in a feminist manner when feminism (when used to deliberately ignore God's Word)is of the world and in direct rebellion to the word of God.

I'm not saying any of you are wrong for your thoughts and beliefs, but along with Shalom's post, Tickled Pink gave the most correct interpretation of the words obey and submit. The words themselves may sound demeaning to a feminist but when taken in their proper context( which is by decree of the God that many of us claim to serve), they provide the foundation of a harmonious union. If you are going to deliberately ignore the Word of God, why ask Him to sanction the marriage in His house (a Church) and with his Vessel for bringing His Word (a Minister)?

I know many Sistas have had to fight the battle for so long without a man worthy of obeying or submitting to(in the Christian since, not abusive) and that is the fault of the Black Man.

Woman of Virtue: there is no one passage per se, but the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit speak on it often.

BTW, I don't want "obey" and "submit" in my vows either. I prefer words more user-friendly words.

[loviest95]

Well here is my $19.08... the word obey was not in my vows but I will say that I believe that a man is and should be the head of the household.. but as you know head does not mean dictate.. every good leader has good council and that is what I am -- my husband's council and some times I give him just a little nudge in the right direction .

and since he is to love me as CHRIST loves the church I have no problem because if my sweet hubby LOVES me that much then he'll do everything in his power to take good care of me

But I will say this "Ladies have your own relationship with God..before you have a relationship with anyone...."

------------------
IVY in my HAND-- AKA in my HEART

[This message has been edited by loviest95 (edited April 20, 2001).]

[toocute]

Originally posted by loviest95:
But I will say this "Ladies have your own relationship with God..before you have a relationship with anyone...."

Excellent advice. A deconess at my church told me the same thing when my husband and I were "courting"

[Kimmie1913]

I think one of the biggest reasons for misinterpretation of the Bible is the fact that it is an interpretation in and of itself for most of us. By working with a translation you are begining with someone's interpretation of the Word. That is always the challenge going from one language to another. Words and their meanings do not always mach up cleanly or accurtely. There are words that are actually bigger concepts that do not exist form language to language and culture to culture. (For demonstration purposes- the term and concept of credit does not exist in many African languages and dialects because they do nt make purchases on credit. Any translation of English then would be inaccuarate because their language cannot accomodate the thoguht.)

As far as the use of obey in my marriage vows- WHEN that day should come, it will not be in my vows. I do beleive that marriage is a partnership and I will consider my husband to be the head of my household. Not the ruler, king or dictator but I will deem him to be the leader. That does not mean that we cannot both lead in diffrent circumstances. In my relationship now we both play the role and lead for various tasks and projects amd problems as is. He does not expect me to do as I am told or need his permission to do anyhing. He respects me as an individual and I respect him the same way. We trus in each ohter to do wha is bes for the collective and to respect each other even when we disagree.

Primarily, the word obey will not be there because I do not beleive it fully captures the true meaning God intended to put upon it and that to use our English substitute does not reflect the promise I will be making to God and my husband accurately enough for me to be comfortable with it. I intend to defer to him not to obey him and they are not the same thing. I can respect and work with and defer to my husband without promising to obey him. To me, that is more accurate meaning ebodied in many other terms than obey.

[Ideal08]

I have a question, is the word "obey" in each person's vows, or just the bride's? Now, that, I wouldn't allow, simply becuase it takes away balance from the relationship. If it's in both, then that's cool with me.

I have no problem obeying my man in some instances, just as I would hope he would have no problems obeying me in certain instances. I would like to think that I would KNOW my groom inside and out, and I wouldn't marry a man who would take our vows out of context and become a dictator.

I do believe that a man should be the head of the household. I would never want to be the head of the household, if for nothing more than aesthetic purposes: I don't want my man looking like a little b*tch.

I do like AKA2D's idea of just writing your own vows. AKAtude, would your pastor allow that? Go 'head and let them wigglin' fingers touch the keyboard! LMAO!!!

[Professor]

Draw it mild my brother - lol

[B]As long as she promises to do what DL Hugley's wife wouldn't do in "The Brothers" we are ok. She don't have to obey, just hit a brother off, and I will do likewise.

I agree - it's great to take vows but do we honor the vows we take - -

[HopefulProspective]

When my husband and I got married, we discussed the use of "obey" in our vows. Simply put, it was agreed upon if I had to say "OBEY", he would also. So needless to say, "OBEY" was left out of our vows.