When Is It a Good Idea for Campus Panhel Expansion?

[dukedg]

I have had some abstract ideas about expansion and its purpose floating around in my head for awhile. The ideas are really not organized or structured, but I thought I'd put them out there. I've really been thinking about two schools, specifically:

Duke - when I was at Duke we had ten sororities, one of which did not participate (or rarely participated) in FR. After I graduated this sorority left and then Panhel opened for expansion. A new sorority came on and did a fabulous job. Now there are ten sororities and one is struggling with numbers (a chapter that used to do well while I was there). So, in retrospect, I don't know if expansion was a good idea for the greek community there. Why couldn't they just have nine strong chapters?

Ole Miss - I know we have discussed many times here whether Ole Miss should bring on new sororities. Right now it seems (from what I have heard from others) that every group there is strong, large and well-respected. Maybe I'm crazy, but should they open for expansion? How do we know that doing so will not cause one group to become weaker than the rest?

If a certain number of women do not get bids through recruitment, maybe they were not meant to be in sororities? Maybe if they did all get together they would be considered the weak sorority on campus? Obviously, wonderful women fall through the cracks, but I'm speaking of this group generally.

As I said, these are just random thoughts. I hope I didn't offend anyone! I don't feel these thoughts are "right" per se and I'm interested in hearing other people's views of expansion.


P.S. I'm not looking at this from a numbers perspective (i.e., quota is increasing so we should expand). I do see that if a university is dramatically increasing the size of its undergrad population, that may be a different reason to expand.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by dukedg

If a certain number of women do not get bids through recruitment, maybe they were not meant to be in sororities?

Originally Posted by dukedg

If a certain number of women do not get bids through recruitment, maybe they were not meant to be in sororities?

Originally Posted by dukedg

If a certain number of women do not get bids through recruitment, maybe they were not meant to be in sororities?

You win the Internet today.

[bejazd]

I don't know that you can discuss when it's time to expand without a discussion of the numbers, but the number of women who don't end up with a bid after bid matching may not be the most important number.

When my campus went through expansion, it was a good thing for all the groups on a number of levels. First, there had been steady interest in membership, and no one particular group was struggling. Our chapter had so many members that we couldn't have formal meetings in our house because it just was not big enough! Second, supporting the new chapter meant PH had to address some issues related to recruitment, which they did, and everybody benefitted. Third, the new chapter created some excitement on campus and gave a system that could have stagnated some energy. So it was all good!

[dukedg]

Thanks, 33girl, I thought someone might want to shoot me for saying that!

Originally Posted by violetpretty

I strongly disagree that every one of those women were not meant to be Greek (excluding GPA issues). Maybe they were not meant to be Greek in any of the existing chapters. If extension occurs and a new niche is filled, those women may become Greek and have a valuable and enjoyable Greek experience. Even if their chapter is perceived as a "weak" chapter. Believe it or not, plenty of women love their sisters and have enriching experiences in "weak" chapters.

I think there are a number of reasons other than GPA that women may not be a good fit in any sorority. Maybe there are ethical concerns with a woman (for example, she stole money from a job where she worked). Or maybe she has bad/undeveloped/immature social skills. If she is arrogant, condecending or mean to other women in the chapter, I wouldn't want her in my chapter.

I don't doubt that most women who stick it out in a "weak" chapter love their sisters, or why else would they stay? It just seems that they have to work so much harder at things like recruiting year round and then often have such low morale about their chapters. Furthermore, at many schools if you are way under total you probably have other worries, like financial concerns.

Originally Posted by bejazd

When my campus went through expansion, it was a good thing for all the groups on a number of levels. First, there had been steady interest in membership, and no one particular group was struggling. Our chapter had so many members that we couldn't have formal meetings in our house because it just was not big enough! Second, supporting the new chapter meant PH had to address some issues related to recruitment, which they did, and everybody benefitted. Third, the new chapter created some excitement on campus and gave a system that could have stagnated some energy. So it was all good!

I find this so interesting, because it sounds like from the outset a very similar situation to the Duke expansion. This is why I wonder what else is going on that made your expansion so successful and the Duke one not?

[skylark]

Originally Posted by dukedg

I think there are a number of reasons other than GPA that women may not be a good fit in any sorority. Maybe there are ethical concerns with a woman (for example, she stole money from a job where she worked). Or maybe she has bad/undeveloped/immature social skills. If she is arrogant, condecending or mean to other women in the chapter, I wouldn't want her in my chapter.

Wholeheartedly agree with this statement for non-competitive campuses (not the mega-southern schools that girls get cut from simply because there aren't enough spots... but then again maybe that's a sign to expand).

The only girls I saw ever go without any bids on my campus (which was a small campus with a less-competitive greek system) were girls that were downright rude to everyone.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by skylark

Wholeheartedly agree with this statement for non-competitive campuses (not the mega-southern schools that girls get cut from simply because there aren't enough spots... but then again maybe that's a sign to expand).

The only girls I saw ever go without any bids on my campus (which was a small campus with a less-competitive greek system) were girls that were downright rude to everyone.

If you look at the number of girls who get totally dropped or see it through to the end and don't match even at the mega-southern schools, it's a pretty small number in a lot of cases.

What's more likely to happen is they drop out because they don't like where they are invited back, which might change if another group is on campus. A new group won't have any reputation at all and might be more attractive than an established but not as well regarded group.

Some campuses like Ole Miss, though, are more problematic because tradition is such a huge part of the system. It's hard to break in new, even assuming you could start at relatively the same level.

Mississippi State isn't even as, dare I say, elitist as Ole Miss in terms of the Greek system, and two of the more recent groups failed. Alpha Gam went on in the late 80s, was able to build a house and hang on for 10+ years, but then folded for low numbers. Alpha Omicron Pi apparently had a colony that never even made it to chapter status if the news story I read was accurate. (ETA: apparently this group never even made it to colony status.) Both these examples are in spite of the fact that it's a campus where the remaining groups all come pretty close to hitting quota in pretty huge pledge classes. Sometimes it's just really hard to break in because PNMs have such a firmly establish sense of where they want to be before recruitment even starts.

It will be interesting to see what happens at Alabama. I have the perception that they are getting more out-of-state girls which may make it easier on the new groups because it will be a pool of PNMs with more open minds.

UGA, in my opinion, will be easier for a new group to colonize than at any other time in its history because so many suburban Atlanta kids are going there now who honestly don't have the background in Greek life to care that much about tradition. And because of release figures. Again, I'm just comparing UGA to itself in the past; it will still be insane compared to non-SEC schools.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by dukedg

I think there are a number of reasons other than GPA that women may not be a good fit in any sorority. Maybe there are ethical concerns with a woman (for example, she stole money from a job where she worked). Or maybe she has bad/undeveloped/immature social skills. If she is arrogant, condecending or mean to other women in the chapter, I wouldn't want her in my chapter.

Sorry, I guess I didn't make it clear that I was referring to women who seem to have been cross-cut for no apparent reason.

[violetpretty]

There are many reasons to extend. Obviously, if the undergrad population is increasing, one would anticipate that the same percentage of students would want to be Greek and so the choices are to raise total or extend. Or, if there has been a continuing upward trend in percentage of students interested, that would also be a reason to extend or raise total.

Extension may be the right answer if a greater diversity among chapters is desired, or if the campus Panhellenic likes the current chapter size or wants to reduce chapter size with further extensions.

Raising total may be the best choice if the campus Panhellenic wants to grow the size of its chapters, if land/housing is unavailable and all other NPC groups have houses, if the campus feels there is sufficient diversity, or if the campus has a "toxic" Greek environment where new=bad.

If there are a large number of women who are released from all chapters, the campus Panhellenic needs to try to figure out why. If it's just a big group of women with a barely-high enough GPA, you have your answer as to why they were cross-released.

But often, there is a niche that is unfulfilled. Sometimes the niche may be obvious. For example, there might be no Jewish sorority on campus (or only 1) and there is an interest group wishing to colonize a Jewish sorority.

More often, the niche may be less obvious, and you won't always be able to identify it and recruit for it. I'll give a stupid example to illustrate my point. You can't really say "Oh, we don't have a chapter where green-eyed redheads would fit. We should extend and target the new chapter to green-eyed redheads." The niche will develop on its own based on the character of the women who choose to be colony members.


ETA:

Originally Posted by dukedg

Duke - when I was at Duke we had ten sororities, one of which did not participate (or rarely participated) in FR. After I graduated this sorority left and then Panhel opened for expansion. A new sorority came on and did a fabulous job. Now there are ten sororities and one is struggling with numbers (a chapter that used to do well while I was there). So, in retrospect, I don't know if expansion was a good idea for the greek community there. Why couldn't they just have nine strong chapters?

Perhaps your campus Panhellenic felt that there was a niche missing with only 9 chapters.

Originally Posted by dukedg

Ole Miss - I know we have discussed many times here whether Ole Miss should bring on new sororities. Right now it seems (from what I have heard from others) that every group there is strong, large and well-respected. Maybe I'm crazy, but should they open for expansion? How do we know that doing so will not cause one group to become weaker than the rest?

Ole Miss is a whole different bag of issues. I would be inclined to say that they should just raise total if they feel that not enough women are getting placed. But their quotas are in the 80-90s, and chapter sizes are well over 300. I personally wouldn't want a chapter that freaking huge, but maybe that's what works for Ole Miss. Another issue coming into play is the lack of housing/available land. ADPi and ZTA I believe used to have chapters there, but when they closed, the University bought the houses and uses it for academic purposes, so I don't see it being easy getting those houses back. Due to zoning laws, it won't be easy to build another house nearby should extension occur, and at Ole Miss, not having a house is not an option. Also, at Ole Miss, a new chapter might be perceived as much less desirable because it has less "tradition" than the others. I think that a NPC group with a strong Southern reputation in that area, tons of cash, a miracle to acquire a house, and an innovative marketing scheme would be the best formula for a successful extension at Ole Miss.

Originally Posted by dukedg

If a certain number of women do not get bids through recruitment, maybe they were not meant to be in sororities? Maybe if they did all get together they would be considered the weak sorority on campus? Obviously, wonderful women fall through the cracks, but I'm speaking of this group generally.

I strongly disagree that every one of those women were not meant to be Greek (excluding GPA issues, bad reputations etc). Maybe they were not meant to be Greek in any of the existing chapters. If extension occurs and a new niche is filled, those women may become Greek and have a valuable and enjoyable Greek experience. Even if their chapter is perceived as a "weak" chapter. Believe it or not, plenty of women love their sisters and have enriching experiences in "weak" chapters.

[Low C Sharp]

Now there are ten sororities and one is struggling with numbers (a chapter that used to do well while I was there). So, in retrospect, I don't know if expansion was a good idea for the greek community there. Why couldn't they just have nine strong chapters?

The question is, did the new sorority coming on have anything to do with the established chapter beginning to struggle? I have a number of close friends who are alumni of the chapter that's having a rough time today. I got the impression that the community at Duke, for whatever reasons, likes to have a soccer-ball chapter to kick around, and the expansion wasn't the issue -- it was the departure/rejuvenation of the previous soccer-ball chapter. When the previous victim of negative stereotyping was gone, someone had to take its place.
________
Glass bongs

[dukedg]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

The question is, did the new sorority coming on have anything to do with the established chapter beginning to struggle? I have a number of close friends who are alumni of the chapter that's having a rough time today. I got the impression that the community at Duke, for whatever reasons, likes to have a soccer-ball chapter to kick around, and the expansion wasn't the issue -- it was the departure/rejuvenation of the previous soccer-ball chapter. When the previous victim of negative stereotyping was gone, someone had to take its place.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I think there is a similar discussion going on in another thread about one chapter always being the struggling chapter on a campus. I can also see what Zillini is saying and I do think there becomes a point when the struggling chapter crosses some sort of line and can no longer recover on campus (without closing then reopening or a complete recolonization).

I don't think that the new sorority necessarily caused this other chapter to fail, but when a chapter closes why wouldn't panhel want to wait a number of years and make sure all sororities are stabilized before trying to add a new group?

Maybe one way to look at a successful expansion is whether a higher percentage of the population is now going greek than were before. I think this addresses the niche violetpretty was talking about. At Duke, for example, the percentage of women going greek has actually declined even though the new sorority that came to campus did a fabulous job with their colonization! At a school like Ole Miss where there is more of a logistical issue with the size of the chapters, then the goal of expansion is to keep at least the same number of women involved in greek life but decrease each chapter's size, right?

[BabyPiNK_FL]

My particular school voted for extension just before my term at PC secretary was over. We are now in the process of presentations. We needed it because quota has been in the consistent 40s with quota additions making it go into the early 50s for some chapters. One year quota was over 50. There are some chapters that are growing very large and it is getting difficult to have meetings as our school is not very accomodating when it comes to reserving meeting rooms and many can not handle the sizes all of us are approaching. We did have one chapter that was consistently below total, but they had been making leaps and bounds to improve their standing and are currently meeting total. We also knew that if necessary we would be willing to accomodate them in the event that they needed more membership even if they were over total to keep them strong during the process (but they no longer need it as far as I understand). Basically we all agreed we'd like chapter size to stay around total and stop exceeding it excessively and put extension out there. It will make our chapters stronger and give us access to better accomodations on campus.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by dukedg

I don't think that the new sorority necessarily caused this other chapter to fail, but when a chapter closes why wouldn't panhel want to wait a number of years and make sure all sororities are stabilized before trying to add a new group?

Because maybe that chapter will NEVER stablize. And Panhel really can't make the women who want to be Greek pick it...even if their combined force could revitalilze it. The women who joined the colony weren't necessarily doing it because it was an alternative to this weakest chapter....they may have been legacies, wanted the colonizing experience, etc.

I don't think new colonies kill old chapters unless the old chapter is on life support anyway. Or, as Low C Sharp said, the school vibe is such that they aren't happy unless someone's in the gutter. That's what needs to be fixed.

[UGAalum94]

To me, it would make sense to wait a couple of years after one chapter closes before you opened for expansion if any other chapters are below total.

Why not give those groups a year or two of year round COB/COR plus two formal recruitments before adding the new group? (I understand that it's not likely to help the one "bad" chapter who can't ever seem to catch up when you have that scenario, but when you've got a couple of groups or you have a group that is clearly making membership number progress, why not wait?)

And, I'll be honest, when the campus opens right up after a chapter folds, it seems a little bit in bad taste, sort of like the campus was waiting for it, "Well, now that THEY are gone. . . "

[Zillini]

Originally Posted by dukedg

Duke - when I was at Duke we had ten sororities, one of which did not participate (or rarely participated) in FR. After I graduated this sorority left and then Panhel opened for expansion. A new sorority came on and did a fabulous job. Now there are ten sororities and one is struggling with numbers (a chapter that used to do well while I was there). So, in retrospect, I don't know if expansion was a good idea for the greek community there. Why couldn't they just have nine strong chapters?

Just wanted to throw this out there. Please note I'm not familiar with Duke's specific situation so I'm responding in generalities.

1+1 does not always equal 2. There may be internal problems that cause a Chapter to drop in numbers. We've all heard/seen examples of a few "bad" group of Exec officers or "bad" pledge classes dragging a Chapter down. Once you find yourself on one of the bottom rungs of the Panhellenic ladder, it takes a lot of hard work to pull yourself back up no matter how strong the entire Greek system is.

There are some unfortunate situations where no matter how much hard work a Chapter puts in, they simply can't pull themselves up. They could be busting their buttts recruiting 24/7/365 and still never manage to grow even though everyone else on Sorority Row is bursting at the seams with large memberships.

Why is that? The fault for lack of a better word lies with the PNMs. Let's face it, there are many young women who are only interested in joining a rock solid Chapter and/or a popular one. Some don't want to take on the challenge of fighting for a struggling Chapter. Some don't want to have to work that hard because they already have enough on their plate with school, etc. Some aren't interested in being groundbreaking leaders. Some would rather not be Greek at all than take on that responsbility. I'm not saying it's right, but it's not necessarily wrong either.

We as alums sometimes get so wrapped up in the big picture Panhellenic mindset. At times we forget what it was like being 18 and having to make that life changing choice of which sorority to join. If given the choice at that age, would we have selected the "challenge" over the "easy" Chapter? Especially when we bonded with the sisters of the stronger ones?

But our alum instinct is that if one Chapter is struggling we must all band together to strengthen it. We're only as strong as our weakest link. Well sadly sometimes there is just no way to fix this problem because it's too large and too pervasive. The only reasonable alternative is to allow that struggling Chapter to close. Sometimes bringing in a new org with a clean slate to colonize is the best solution.

My two cents worth.