Rankings?

[Erik P Conard]

Originally posted by bolingbaker
and that would be very unfortunate given their past and their alumni. The truth is that they'd have to make an effort to screw it up. TKEmz894, I've seen some of your other posts and I see that you understand the way it really works. We both know that if SAE comes back to LSU and knows what they're doing, they'll be right back where they were within a year, maybe two. Other fraternities on that campus could never even dream of such a thing.

Right again...
What is it that is so hard to grasp, my Greek friends? It has long been established that the movers and shakers are as a
rule also the largest? Where is the smallest the most vaunted?
And if so, they will become the largest, like it or not.
The once-exclusive Dekes, Zetes, Alpha Delts, Chi Psis, etc.
Where are they today? Imploded with very few exceptions.
SAE is likely the strongest all around club throughout the 20th
century, they are no dummies. Nor are the Betas.
The Pikes have gotten smart. Perhaps Sig Ep, Lambda Chi &
TKE (mine) can learn from them. Heller still reigns!

[Tom Earp]

Life is like a wheel!

Sometimes you are on the top and other times on the bottom!

But the wheel keeps on turning.

Sometimes faster and sometimes slower, but it keeps turning!

[justamom]

I am sure you will do well in the teachers' lounge, but out here we don't seem to grasp what you are trying to say.

Mr. Conrad, I am amuzed by your response! I find it quite trite and would be mildly offended if this were a topic worthy of a HEATED debate. I am truly sorry you and whoever consitutes "we" were unable to grasp my meaning. I would have been more than happy to further explain my thoughts on this subject in an effort to clarify things for you had you requested. Pithy remarks are humorous at times, but of little consequence to the oveall discussion. The exception being such a tactic demeans your delivery of the information, and quit honestly I would have thought below you. Is that clear enough?

LSU- Kappa Sig, a decent percentage of their fraternity is from our area. We have a chapter here and perhaps that has helped in their recruitment. Regardless of the Alum backing, I see a continuing struggle for this chapter due to many of the reasons listed and some that need not be discussed. There is an image problem that anyone familiar with the chapter is probably aware of. (this is true for other chapters as well) Insurmountable? I don't know.

We have "powerful", connected alums of SAE and KS here. They have worked and donated their time and money, but they have not been effective in changing the course of their individual chapters at LSU. Their own children, their legacies are not encouraged to join their respective chapters because the strength of the network doesn't exist any longer. The "power" and the "prestige" isn't there. Nor does it exist for XYZ, but go to Texas and and they blow away some of our LSU powerhouses.

Bolingbaker, we have found common ground! Your posts indeed were clear and informative. I have been swayed to a degree.

We know how to do that now, and the benefits include enthusiasm, excitement and prosperity of the national organization.

These are the ingregients that seem to differentiate the individual chapters on any campus. Suffice it to say, it's very hard to get excited when numbers are down, you are on academic probation or the sororities/fraternities don't want to mix with you...all reflections of the individuals comprising the chapter, the "profile" if you will. This in turn affects the recruitmet and future of the individual chapter. My point is that over a span of 25 years, I have seen examples of the complete rotation-not just #1 dropping to #5, but the complete switch. U of H is a good example, LSU as well. Post after post from alums on this site have commented, "Well, we once were #1, but we aren't very strong now" There are many who can attest to this. It's universal, though we all know some GLOs have been harder hit than others. Acknowliging my LIMITED info- Heller would have us believe that by following a blueprint #1 -#5 will always be on top. Lets just assume that every GLO followed the same blueprint, what then, stagnation?
I won't argue with the concept of setting standards and goals because it's stating the obvious. I always question the validity and importance of studies be it Mr. Heller's or the lasting effects building a dam will have on the snail darter. I just wonder if the PNMs are cooperating with all this. I think most parents encourage their children to be the best that they can be but their own concepts may not fit the same mold we were raised with. This is what promotes change. Maybe it's because I see things from a limited perception as I am not involved in the hierarchy of NPC or IFC. I do understand that evaluations are tools used in every part of life. Competition can be healthy. I just FEEL that on an individual basis, it's the experience within the chapter that births the great alum and the alums are important to the continued development of the chapter (and on and on). My original point- When one labels an entire GLO, or ranks individual chapters, it can hurts the system on campuses-THE LIFELINE! Those that find it overly important and base their "selection" solely on the principles of power or reputation etc., may not have the best experience and therefore, not be the kind of alum that benefits the whole. I can see why this was meant to be "secret". Interesting of course, beneficial, to a degree, of any great importance.....not so sure, but am not dogmatic.
Everytime a campus loses a chapter, the system as a whole suffers. Ranking and labeling individual chapters contributes to the overall decline. It's easy to be king of the hill when you're the last (only) one standing.

[justamom]

Just wondering, why are we duplicating subjects???

First we had a Rankings part 2 added, and now we have James' thread Drinking in letters spun off to part 2 after only 2 pages???

Makes one wonder if there is a "method to this madness" when it merely clutters the forum.

[TxGirl]

I'm posting this in both threads of this topic.

I think that everyone is missing somethng here. I think it is silly to think that a group doesn't know it's rank on it's own campus. If there are a large number of groups they at least know if they are on the top, middle or bottom of the group. It's also silly to think that the national oraganizations don't know this information also. As sororities we all have consultants of some form who visit chapters. Usually they visit chapters with problems - not the perfect ones. A national fraternity never wants to lose a chapter whether it be on a campus that has 2/3 groups or one that has 25 groups.

Someone was talking earlier about closing a small chapter. If they can sustain themselves and they WANT to keep their chapter, then my organization will do whatever it takes to help them. Sometimes the women just don't want to fight the uphill battle anymore or they cannot afford to keep their house etc. and the chapter must close.

I know that chapters can be turned around. When I first became and advisor the chapter I work with returned with 35 women (total is 100), had the worst grades on campus and had huge financail problesm. At recruitment that year they pledged quota at bid match for the first time ever. In doing so they doubled their sisterhood. 9 years later (yes it has been a long and REALLY bumpy road) they are returning with the second largest amount of women for recruitment, received top honors on campus, were ranked 1st in the fall and 3rd in the spring for grades and are now financially sound.
Back to my original comment - the national fraternity knew that this chapter was in trouble and gave them the help they needed to get back on track. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. This information is not received from some super-secret newlsetter, it is sent in by the chapters in their reports to the fraternity. We try to see when it looks like a group is starting to slide and stop it before it snowballs.

You also have to think about regional popularity. Some sororities are seen as traditionally southern and do better in these areas than others. Where as others (mine included) are stronger northern sororities. No one group is going to be strong or weak on every campus that it is on.

If you really wanted a "rank" go by total (living) membership of each group - initated only please.

Of course as Justamom said, these should not be used by collegiates for picking a group. Ideally, they should choose their group for the sister/brotherhood found there - ha . . . if only it were a perfect world!

Just my two cents and something no one has brought up in this discussion.

[Erik P Conard]

Originally posted by justamom
I am sure you will do well in the teachers' lounge, but out here we don't seem to grasp what you are trying to say.

Mr. Conrad, I am amuzed by your response! I find it quite trite and would be mildly offended if this were a topic worthy of a HEATED debate. I am truly sorry you and whoever consitutes "we" were unable to grasp my meaning. I would have been more than happy to further explain my thoughts on this subject in an effort to clarify things for you had you requested. Pithy remarks are humorous at times, but of little consequence to the oveall discussion. The exception being such a tactic demeans your delivery of the information, and quit honestly I would have thought below you. Is that clear enough?

LSU- Kappa Sig, a decent percentage of their fraternity is from our area. We have a chapter here and perhaps that has helped in their recruitment. Regardless of the Alum backing, I see a continuing struggle for this chapter due to many of the reasons listed and some that need not be discussed. There is an image problem that anyone familiar with the chapter is probably aware of. (this is true for other chapters as well) Insurmountable? I don't know.

We have "powerful", connected alums of SAE and KS here. They have worked and donated their time and money, but they have not been effective in changing the course of their individual chapters at LSU. Their own children, their legacies are not encouraged to join their respective chapters because the strength of the network doesn't exist any longer. The "power" and the "prestige" isn't there. Nor does it exist for XYZ, but go to Texas and and they blow away some of our LSU powerhouses.

Bolingbaker, we have found common ground! Your posts indeed were clear and informative. I have been swayed to a degree.

We know how to do that now, and the benefits include enthusiasm, excitement and prosperity of the national organization.

These are the ingregients that seem to differentiate the individual chapters on any campus. Suffice it to say, it's very hard to get excited when numbers are down, you are on academic probation or the sororities/fraternities don't want to mix with you...all reflections of the individuals comprising the chapter, the "profile" if you will. This in turn affects the recruitmet and future of the individual chapter. My point is that over a span of 25 years, I have seen examples of the complete rotation-not just #1 dropping to #5, but the complete switch. U of H is a good example, LSU as well. Post after post from alums on this site have commented, "Well, we once were #1, but we aren't very strong now" There are many who can attest to this. It's universal, though we all know some GLOs have been harder hit than others. Acknowliging my LIMITED info- Heller would have us believe that by following a blueprint #1 -#5 will always be on top. Lets just assume that every GLO followed the same blueprint, what then, stagnation?
I won't argue with the concept of setting standards and goals because it's stating the obvious. I always question the validity and importance of studies be it Mr. Heller's or the lasting effects building a dam will have on the snail darter. I just wonder if the PNMs are cooperating with all this. I think most parents encourage their children to be the best that they can be but their own concepts may not fit the same mold we were raised with. This is what promotes change. Maybe it's because I see things from a limited perception as I am not involved in the hierarchy of NPC or IFC. I do understand that evaluations are tools used in every part of life. Competition can be healthy. I just FEEL that on an individual basis, it's the experience within the chapter that births the great alum and the alums are important to the continued development of the chapter (and on and on). My original point- When one labels an entire GLO, or ranks individual chapters, it can hurts the system on campuses-THE LIFELINE! Those that find it overly important and base their "selection" solely on the principles of power or reputation etc., may not have the best experience and therefore, not be the kind of alum that benefits the whole. I can see why this was meant to be "secret". Interesting of course, beneficial, to a degree, of any great importance.....not so sure, but am not dogmatic.
Everytime a campus loses a chapter, the system as a whole suffers. Ranking and labeling individual chapters contributes to the overall decline. It's easy to be king of the hill when you're the last (only) one standing.

I will not debate LSU as it has been a long time since I have been there. I do not consider myself an expert on the southern
chapters, but yet feel you have no understanding what Heller
was trying to do.
And the old school teacher in my would admonish you to either
learn to spell or get a spell check to enhance credibility.
My forty plus active years in Greek volunteerism does not necessarily make me a know -it-all, but as far as we are concerned, there's not much more to say. Erik P Conard-Denver, CO

[CarolinaDG]

What do you mean by "Chi Psi's imploded"? We have Chi Psi on our campus, and I'll admit it's by far not the largest fraternity, but one of my best friends used to be the president, so I'm just kind of wondering what you meant by that...?

[douthit]

I would be interested to see Heller's ratings, just to see where my national fraternity stacked up against the traditional big name powerhouses. Also, I'm sometimes curious as to how we fare on campuses other than my own.

As far as my campus, I don't care where we would fall in any ranking system. We are a smaller chapter, so we don't get the name recognition some of the other houses do, but I don't give a rat's ass If the sororities don't care to know us, I think it is their loss. Plus, with a few of the summer rushees we have gotten already, the potential for the chapter is better than it has been in 5 or 10 years i think.

Anyway, to agree with a lot of other posts on this thread, the use of rankings by potential rushees could lead to some chapters unfairly getting overlooked. I'm thankful that this did not happen to me, because I don't know where I would be if I hadn't joined Phi Sigma Kappa, and I don't want to think about it!

[TxGirl]

I will not debate LSU as it has been a long time since I have been there. I do not consider myself an expert on the southern chapters, but yet feel you have no understanding what Heller
was trying to do.
And the old school teacher in my would admonish you to either
learn to spell or get a spell check to enhance credibility.
My forty plus active years in Greek volunteerism does not necessarily make me a know -it-all, but as far as we are concerned, there's not much more to say. Erik P Conard-Denver, CO


It's hard to take the spell check comment seriously when you need grammar check in yours - hee, hee.

I have never personally read Heller's work, but if it could get chapters to stop screaming "quality vs quantity" that would be great. I think that is a trap that small groups talk themselves into sometimes. They would rather have three -10's than a mix of 6, 7 & 8's who have potential to be 10's.

[Erik P Conard]

The old College Survey Bureau ratings are now just that, old.
Why not contact the Phi Sig headquarters, they might have copies, or read some of the earlier posts which note where the
files of Heller are now reposing.
The merger of Phi Sigma Kappa and Phi Sigma Epsilon was a
smart one in that it gave PSK some middle west representation
it did not have.
Finally, though, if you are not concerned or worried about your
chapter's size or prominence or what have you, then don't be.

[damasa]

Originally posted by Erik P Conard

I will not debate LSU as it has been a long time since I have been there. I do not consider myself an expert on the southern
chapters, but yet feel you have no understanding what Heller
was trying to do.
And the old school teacher in my would admonish you to either
learn to spell or get a spell check to enhance credibility.
My forty plus active years in Greek volunteerism does not necessarily make me a know -it-all, but as far as we are concerned, there's not much more to say. Erik P Conard-Denver, CO

I think you should check out the grammar check in your posting before pointing out a spell checker for a different post/poster.
Keep it on track as a debate, not as a personal attack. When one stoops to that level credibility is lost.

[bolingbaker]

I don't remember who made the statement, but he's correct. There were a number of old line national fraternities that dominated the scene in the 19th Century. The most well known, the most prestigeous names were fraternities like Zeta Psi, Psi Upsilon, Chi Psi, Sigma Phi, Delta Psi, DKE and others. Those fraternities fell back into relative obscurity in the face of furious and aggressive expansion by Beta Theta Pi, SAE, Sigma Chi and Phi Delta Theta. In some cases, Psi Upsilon for instance, the national organization simply decided to not provide leadership, and let each chapter basically fend for itself. Going into the turn of the century, those four (Betas, SAEs,etc) began to assert their dominance. DKE remained strong through the 1960s, but has since fallen away. DKE still has a few spectacular chapters, and they are a feisty national, willing to take on legal challenges that effect all of us. But DKE probably fell further than anyone else based on their exalted national status in 1900.
So, to say that "Chi Psi imploded" is not meant (I'm certain) to be critical of a particular chapter. The writer was just stating the truth, which is that Chi Psi was once a grand national that has now very nearly desappeared as a competitive force.
Once again, the "rankings" supplied by Heller were never meant to be used as a basis for speaking to rushees. They are tools that allow leaders to see where their house stands within the competitive environment. There are plenty who don't care to compete at all. All the better for those who do. The history of the fraternities is instructive as to what happens to those who do not recognize the competitive nature of the system. Chi Psi serves as a pointed example of that principle.

[Erik P Conard]

Originally posted by bolingbaker
I don't remember who made the statement, but he's correct. There were a number of old line national fraternities that dominated the scene in the 19th Century. The most well known, the most prestigeous names were fraternities like Zeta Psi, Psi Upsilon, Chi Psi, Sigma Phi, Delta Psi, DKE and others. Those fraternities fell back into relative obscurity in the face of furious and aggressive expansion by Beta Theta Pi, SAE, Sigma Chi and Phi Delta Theta. In some cases, Psi Upsilon for instance, the national organization simply decided to not provide leadership, and let each chapter basically fend for itself. Going into the turn of the century, those four (Betas, SAEs,etc) began to assert their dominance. DKE remained strong through the 1960s, but has since fallen away. DKE still has a few spectacular chapters, and they are a feisty national, willing to take on legal challenges that effect all of us. But DKE probably fell further than anyone else based on their exalted national status in 1900.
So, to say that "Chi Psi imploded" is not meant (I'm certain) to be critical of a particular chapter. The writer was just stating the truth, which is that Chi Psi was once a grand national that has now very nearly desappeared as a competitive force.
Once again, the "rankings" supplied by Heller were never meant to be used as a basis for speaking to rushees. They are tools that allow leaders to see where their house stands within the competitive environment. There are plenty who don't care to compete at all. All the better for those who do. The history of the fraternities is instructive as to what happens to those who do not recognize the competitive nature of the system. Chi Psi serves as a pointed example of that principle.

again, you express it well...
unless the dear readers have read Heller or Baird's, or the histories of the varied groups, it is indeed hard to follow what
we have been saying. There are individual chapters on campi
which have experienced great successes. I am sure you can
find a strong Zeta Psi chapter somewhere outside of Canada...
We are not trying to hurt feelings, and those who feel bruised
simply do not understand and obviously are unwilling to do the
homework necessary to follow along. Sorry, we did not take you
to raise.
That S. Carolina president of Chi Psi likely knew little history of
the Chi's when he joined...this in no way detracts from him being a darling or a friend...We are discussing organizations, leadership, planning, salesmanship, things a good outfit ought
to teach. We have become a bit more than Mark Hopkins on one end of the log. We are now somewhat with a trade school mentality trying to fit into a once-elitist concept. There are a lot
in college who do not belong, and further, tsk, tsk, fellow Greeks
look at your lousy grades...are we still getting the leaders?

[TKEmz894]

To those who are getting all over Frater Conard about his grammar......You might want to watch your tongue, if you look at his posts you will get the idea that he is an inovator of My fraternitys system, and the Greek system in general....He has set up numerous chapters around the nation, and if you like him or not, he is the man as far as knowledge of Greeks, their history, and probably your chapters history......Basically he knows what he is talking about.....he has been in the greek system for a long time and still is a major player.....So watch your mouth, cause he has alot of friends...including me.....

[Erik P Conard]

Originally posted by TKEmz894
To those who are getting all over Frater Conard about his grammar......You might want to watch your tongue, if you look at his posts you will get the idea that he is an inovator of My fraternitys system, and the Greek system in general....He has set up numerous chapters around the nation, and if you like him or not, he is the man as far as knowledge of Greeks, their history, and probably your chapters history......Basically he knows what he is talking about.....he has been in the greek system for a long time and still is a major player.....So watch your mouth, cause he has alot of friends...including me.....

thank you, frater, for your defense....BUT people...I am not on this site to alienate anyone. I have a goodly number of other things to do. My kids are raised, I paid my t axes, and thanks to
a stroke and two coronaries, I no longer water ski in a three piece suit. I still buy unripened fruit, and generally am a likeable cuss. But do not come here unprepared, and please
leave the emotion at the altar. We are fighting for our lives, us
Greeks, and we need to sup, not forage....EPC