Will the Greek world ever desegregate? - Page 8

LexiKD · #**106** 02-11-2002, 06:42 PM

I have no doubt that the PNM's race had a lot to do with her Recruitment, but it wasn't just one group that did not want her. If the group felt she was a membership risk, for any reason, they would not ask her back.

I'm not saying it's right, but it only makes a marketable story if it has the word racism attached. I haven't seen an article about an unkempt PNM that was cut b/c that doesn't sell.

I think the school can be a huge help if they work with the entire system; it is not just this one chapter or this one recruitment. Like the chapter members said, if they took her they would have no social life, if they have no social life, they will eventually fall behind in numbers, not keeping dues up and so on. They have to find PNMs that will enhance their group, it's all about campus culture, that's why the school should do a lot for the system.

carnation · #**107** 02-11-2002, 06:45 PM

Optimist, let me tell you where I'm coming from on this one.

Pi Beta Phi was started by Christian women and has a very Christian ritual. When I was a new member, there was a very big stink. The sorority had pledged some non-Christian women and those women wanted our ritual changed. They went to Convention and raised Cain about it and their motion to remove all Christian references was soundly defeated.

A few chapters had sided with them and I can still remember out president describing the horrible, divisive meetings. It was some time before the rifts were healed. The same thing happened to at least 2 other sororities, I can't remember which 2, in the seventies.

The women who have said that you need to know what you're getting into beforehand were correct. Don't pledge a group and then tear them up trying to change what they hold dear.

LexiKD · #**108** 02-11-2002, 07:18 PM

Carnation: I agree!

If you join any group, be educated about it. If you do not agree 100% regarding the religous aspects, you cannot make it a big deal. Even if you are Christian, you still may not agree with everything, but own the fact that your group was founded on certain things and those thiings must be respected.

I'm Greek Orthodox and I promise our 4 founders were not, but it has never crossed my mind that it should matter.

#**109** 02-11-2002, 07:57 PM

Well that article saddens me... but I am still happy that they are trying to overcome it. I know racism happens everywhere and its happened to me, but maybe im just use to going to a school where the "historically white" GLO's are pretty diverse.

33girl · #**110** 02-11-2002, 08:44 PM

OK I hope I remember everything in this thread...

Rudey, my fellow Rolling Rock lover...thank you for reminding me that I should not bother trying to be politically correct. It just doesn't come out of me right! So I'll be blunt: I am not by any means saying that discrimination against Jews doesn't exist and that it can't be very lonely to feel you are "different." However, you cannot look at Alison Davis and say that she is Jewish, as opposed to Asians or African-Americans. She's not going to pulled over by some a-hole cop for "driving while Jewish." I feel it was wrong of her to say that she is as much of a minority as the A-A woman was, because it is just not the same.

As I veer off topic (and who really cares if I do

) prettypoodle6 said:

i think a lot of us (nphc'ers) have been under the impression that NIC and NPC orgs were collegiate organizations only - cause that's what we've been told/seen by actions.

I also was told that upon graduations members had to return their pins and almost everyone that i know that has graduated dont associate with there organization (my coworker who joined a fraternity gets on me all the time - calling me obsessive - cause i'm very involved with my sorority. he even asked me when i was going to grow out of it!)

just want to thanks folks for clearing up the fact the NIC and NPC organizations were for life....

I think a lot of this has to do with what Kelli said in her post, that grad chapters of NPHC orgs work the same as undergrad chapters. In NPC and NIC there are many different ways to be "active." For example, there is a woman from my chapter who has given thousands of dollars to the national organization but has never come to any of our chapter's alumnae events. On the other side of the coin, there are women who have given tons of time to their local chapter but have never made a donation to the national org. Then there are those who are somewhere in between. (sweeping genralization ahead) I believe that it stems from the different ways the groups choose their members...in NPHC you choose the national organization, and NPC you choose the members of the local chapter. I think NPHC members have a much better grasp of the sorority/fraternity as a national whole.

Re Alison Davis again, if she was that involved in her religion and the Jewish community, isn't there a way that she could have found out through those connections which organizations had a strong Christian base?

Jody · #**111** 02-11-2002, 09:23 PM

To respond to the original question, no I don't think that Greek letter organizations will be 50/50 or 70/30 or anything close to that in our lifetime because the racial diversity in our country isn't close to those numbers. However, the fact that if one chooses to join an organization they have the opportunity to join anything they want, is what is primarily important. At the risk of sounding politically incorrect, so what if NPHC and NIC and NPC (did I do that right?) are predominately one race or another? Is that necessarily a bad thing? I don't think so! The fact that we live in a country that allows us to have "ethnic enclaves" and still reasonably (notice I say reasonably) get along makes me proud to be a US citizen.

To my Greek sisters in NPC sororities, are ladies allowed to join as alumna?

jali0004 · #**112** 02-11-2002, 09:30 PM

I attend a Big Ten university, and I also thought that NIC/IPC/NPC groups were only collegiate, and I'm glad that the people who explained it on this thread were patient and understamding of our misconceptions.

I have a question and comment:

1) Are these groups service organizations or social organizations?

NPHC orgs are service organizations, but race/culture is a factor for these orgs. My sorority, Alpha Kappa Alpha, provides service to all mankind. However, one of our pillars is service to the Black family.

We have members who are non-black, as a matter of fact, my chapter president when I crossed was hispanic and white. But she knew that one of the things that made our org. different was service to the Black community, and she wanted to be apart of that.

***There is another connection I would like to make, but my French class starts soon!! I'll think about it, and see if I can write it in a w way you all can understand!!

FuzzieAlum · #**113** 02-11-2002, 10:31 PM

AAARRGHHH! I was about to post this when my computer locked up and crashed!

Anyway ...

Quote:

Re Alison Davis again, if she was that involved in her religion and the Jewish community, isn't there a way that she could
have found out through those connections which organizations had a strong Christian base?

No, not really, which has to do with the differences between NPC/NPHC rush and how many of each orgs there are.

A potential NPHC memher has her entire frosh year to learn about the orgs (and she is expected to). Then too she never has to worry about figuring out more than four groups.

An NPC rushee might have rush even before classes start, and has up to 18 chapters to learn about (out of 26 nationals - and then there are locals). Many rushees come from non-greek fams and know NADA about the orgs. Even if you have Greek family members, you only know about a few GLOs. And those might not even be on your campus. So in a week you go from having heard of Tri-Delt, thanks to SNL, to three pref parties where you finally hear about what three chapters believe. You choose, as 33girl said, the chapter, not the national org.

True, a Jewish rushee might know AEPhi and SDT are historically Jewish, or a Catholic one that Theta Phi Alpha was founded Catholic, but that's a best case scenario.

I know I said a rushee ought to make sure that's a groups beliefs are compatible with her own before she initiates - but I can tell you that during rush I was thinking, hm, I like the A Chi O house, the APhis have big hair. You're eliminating groups before you even get to the point of knowing what they believe. You find that out at the pref party to some extent, but by then you've already cut groups.

And yes, we do have alum initiation, but it is pretty rare. Certainly not like it is for NPHC groups.

Now I'm gonna post this before my 'puter freaks out again.

Optimist Prime · #**114** 02-11-2002, 10:34 PM

Maybe I wasn't clear about everything. There is a diferece between things being biblically Christian (i.e. Jesus was an exaple to aspire to his level) doctinaral Christian (Jesus died for YOU) and Jeudeo-Christain monotheism (our father, etc.) Hope that helped clarify where I'm coming from.

ChaosDST · #**115** 02-11-2002, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FuzzieAlum

A potential NPHC memher has her entire frosh year to learn about the orgs (and she is expected to). Then too she never has to worry about figuring out more than four groups.

Not necessarily, not every organization within the NPHC requires 24 credit hours to be eligible for membership. Therefore, freshmen women can pursue membership. For those that do require a minimum of 24 credit hours, a freshman male or female with the necessary credits can pursue membership, but that is often based on the discretion of that school and/or chapter. Typically, interestees pursue membership their sophomore or junior year (there are seniors who pursue membership)-----that's not necessarily when they begin expressing their interest though.
There are also quite a few Historically Black and African-based fraternities and sororities out there that have become nationwide, but are not part of the NPHC. So, there is potential for there to be more than 4 choices for women and 5 choices for men, depending on the school.

FuzzieAlum · #**116** 02-12-2002, 12:03 AM

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought they all required more credits. Thanks for explaining that.

I guess I knew there were a few more than the big four - but I still dom't know of a campus where you'd have to look at nearly 20 groups! It's nuts to keep track of all that. Lots of girls take notes b/c you're trying to remember 17 houses after just a few minutes at each one. I only had five chapters to choose from, it was second semester, and I was still boggled.

Do you know how big the biggest smaller historically black sorority is (I mean, not AKA, DST, SGR or DST)? I'm just curious, because I know an org has to be very big before it can join NPHC.

Rudey · #**117** 02-12-2002, 01:21 AM

How funny it is when everyone in this world just comes to assume that everything is obvious. This topic is taking a direction that I just don't like to be honest with you all. You are choosing to concentrate on this small aspect of Allison rather than what the article was discussing. Is Allison here to tell you what she felt or anything more than just what several sentences reveal about her religion? No...but several of you have chosen to move into a realm of sheer assumption and to start to dissect this girl's motives on everything. Well that is just pure hogwash. How was Allison supposed to know how involved Christianity was in her sorority aside from asking? Yet asking is seen as rude. Did she say she wanted to change her sorority so it would no longer reflect its founding ideals? No I don't believe so, but it seems that a few people think Allison is coming into the house to radically change it. All of these are assumptions and silly analyses that are constructed without consulting Allison. Is this reasonable to you? It's surely not to me.

Optimist Prime: Let me tell you how the concept of a Jewish fraternity came about. Such a fraternity never came about because Jewish men chose not to join a Christian fraternity. They arose when Christian men revealed that they did not want them there.

33Girl: I am not politically correct. I will make jokes about everything on this world and if my friends did not know me very well, they might consider me just a pig of a person. So I do not suggest anyone else be. However, I demand that everyone in this world better themselves by being educated. Remember the comment about walking a mile in someone's shoes. No I have never been pulled over but maybe there is an experience that I have had that a young black man would not ever have. I would not discount anyone's experiences. I would not claim anyone was not a minority if that is how the demographics show it to be. I am not going to sit here and discuss my experiences with you. That would be pointless. My goal is to make sure you don't make outstanding claims without taking the time to evaluate all the facts. If you feel I am just wrong, I will accept this. If you care to discuss this further, I would be more than happy to.

And just so nobody gets the wrong image of me, I will discuss certain aspects about myself. I am Republican. I am very right-wing and conservative. I can tell you about the Christian right because I actually enjoy following it (it's a weird habit I developed). And in true conservative thought, I believe government should be limited and freedoms respected fully. I believe there should be as many Christian camps as christian would want there to be and I will fight for this until I die. And the only thing I don't agree on with other Republicans is the death penalty. But that is because I believe it is flawed currently and when it is perfect, then I will believe in it. And as conservative as I am, I can still see the truth. I am angry when there is racism and when I see people being treated unfairly because of their social status or economic background. And for me to say I am angry would be pointless, so the only option is to work towards change. I am sure that racism exists and will exist for a very long time even within the greek system. However, I am also willing to admit that sometimes people of a feather flock together. But it is a very thin line that people walk between the two and to simply refuse to see both sides is sad. That's my opinion and you can choose to agree or not agree.

-Rudey

Quote:

Originally posted by ChaosDST
No, she's saying that if Alison had such a PROBLEM with the Christian ideals, she shouldn't have joined. It is one thing to join an organization when you're not Christian, it's another to join the organization when you do not agree with its historically Christian ideals. To use your analogy...a black woman who has a problem with white women shouldn't join an historically white sorority. If you have a problem with something, don't place yourself in the midst of it. These are Greek lettered organizations, you don't HAVE to be a member...if you chose to pursue membership, that's something you must deal with. You shouldn't expect the organization (as a whole) to accomodate you but so much. This isn't Burger King, where you can have these organizations YOUR way. You can foster a certain amount of change within your chapter, but even that doesn't go but so far.

Greek Love,
1913

carnation · #**118** 02-12-2002, 09:10 AM

Rudey,

The reason that some of us seem to "assume" things about Alison Davis' actions is that many of us in Georgia are privy to certain inside information that we're not about to let out on these boards. Therefore, what some call "assumptions about motivations" or whatever are not.

ChaosDST · #**119** 02-12-2002, 09:31 AM

With all due respect, it's obvious that you haven't been following the discussion too closely. We have cleared up the misconception that Alison had a "problem" with the Christian ideals and have come to the agreement that her asking about the ideals is not out of line. Now, based on my quote that you used and the previous discussion, our issue is not with Alison inquiring about the ideals. The issue is with anyone attempting to CHANGE the ideals, which Alison did not necessarily try to do. This is why we began speaking in GENERAL terms. Seeing that you didn't understand the dialogue too much, I find it hypocritcal for YOU to make the assumptions that you've made. References to our dialogue as silly analyses, I'm sure you can communicate your point of view without insulting the opinions of others. You can feel as if someone's analysis is incorrect, but the point is to enlighten, which your post did not do.

Quote:

Originally posted by Rudey
How funny it is when everyone in this world just comes to assume that everything is obvious. This topic is taking a direction that I just don't like to be honest with you all. You are choosing to concentrate on this small aspect of Allison rather than what the article was discussing. Is Allison here to tell you what she felt or anything more than just what several sentences reveal about her religion? No...but several of you have chosen to move into a realm of sheer assumption and to start to dissect this girl's motives on everything. Well that is just pure hogwash. How was Allison supposed to know how involved Christianity was in her sorority aside from asking? Yet asking is seen as rude. Did she say she wanted to change her sorority so it would no longer reflect its founding ideals? No I don't believe so, but it seems that a few people think Allison is coming into the house to radically change it. All of these are assumptions and silly analyses that are constructed without consulting Allison. Is this reasonable to you? It's surely not to me.

Optimist Prime: Let me tell you how the concept of a Jewish fraternity came about. Such a fraternity never came about because Jewish men chose not to join a Christian fraternity. They arose when Christian men revealed that they did not want them there.

33Girl: I am not politically correct. I will make jokes about everything on this world and if my friends did not know me very well, they might consider me just a pig of a person. So I do not suggest anyone else be. However, I demand that everyone in this world better themselves by being educated. Remember the comment about walking a mile in someone's shoes. No I have never been pulled over but maybe there is an experience that I have had that a young black man would not ever have. I would not discount anyone's experiences. I would not claim anyone was not a minority if that is how the demographics show it to be. I am not going to sit here and discuss my experiences with you. That would be pointless. My goal is to make sure you don't make outstanding claims without taking the time to evaluate all the facts. If you feel I am just wrong, I will accept this. If you care to discuss this further, I would be more than happy to.

And just so nobody gets the wrong image of me, I will discuss certain aspects about myself. I am Republican. I am very right-wing and conservative. I can tell you about the Christian right because I actually enjoy following it (it's a weird habit I developed). And in true conservative thought, I believe government should be limited and freedoms respected fully. I believe there should be as many Christian camps as christian would want there to be and I will fight for this until I die. And the only thing I don't agree on with other Republicans is the death penalty. But that is because I believe it is flawed currently and when it is perfect, then I will believe in it. And as conservative as I am, I can still see the truth. I am angry when there is racism and when I see people being treated unfairly because of their social status or economic background. And for me to say I am angry would be pointless, so the only option is to work towards change. I am sure that racism exists and will exist for a very long time even within the greek system. However, I am also willing to admit that sometimes people of a feather flock together. But it is a very thin line that people walk between the two and to simply refuse to see both sides is sad. That's my opinion and you can choose to agree or not agree.

-Rudey

ChaosDST · #**120** 02-12-2002, 09:51 AM

I understand your curiosity. We all know size doesn't matter, but DST is the largest Historically Black sorority and SGRho is the smallest (SGRhos, please correct me if I'm incorrect). I don't know the size requirement for an organization's being in the NPHC---I can't even begin to explain that without lying

1913

Quote:

Originally posted by FuzzieAlum

Do you know how big the biggest smaller historically black sorority is (I mean, not AKA, DST, SGR or DST)? I'm just curious, because I know an org has to be very big before it can join NPHC.