Flags of our Fathers

RACooper · #1 10-20-2006, 09:03 AM

Morning all,

I found out that after spending a day in the archives with two visiting Marine generals, I am to be rewarded along with other members of the UofT veterans group, with a VIP (free booze and food) screening of the film "Flags of our Fathers".

I'll let you all know about it if and when I get back...

DeltAlum · #2 10-20-2006, 12:17 PM

Congratulations, Rob.

I hope you'll enjoy the movie. I'm not a big movie person, but I think I'll see this one.

As a side note, it's always interesting to me that almost everyone believes that the flag raisers were all Marines. In fact, one of them was a Navy corpsman (medic).

Also, it has now been well documented that the famous prize winning picture of the event was not the actual first raising of the flag -- but was a restaging using a bigger flag. It was also captured on movie film, but that is almost never seen.

MysticCat · #3 10-20-2006, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

Also, it has now been well documented that the famous prize winning picture of the event was not the actual first raising of the flag -- but was a restaging using a bigger flag. It was also captured on movie film, but that is almost never seen.

It wasn't a restaging.

The point of raising the flag in the first place was to show that Mt. Suribachi had fallen to the Americans. The first flag raised was only 4.5 feet by 2 feet, 4 inches, so it was too small to be seen by Marines landing on the beaches below:

The picture we've all seen of the five Marines and one Navy corpsman :

(uncropped), shows a larger flag being raised so it can be seen from the beach. It was not staged. (This picture shows the smaller one being taken down while the second one was raised):

Joe Rosenthal did have marines pose for a shot a few minutes later -- he called this the "gung ho" shot:

Here is a picture of Rosenthal taking the posed "gung ho" shot:

A week or so after the pictures were taken, Rosenthal was asked by a reporter whether he posed the shot. He thought the reporter meant the "gung ho" shot and answered "Sure." Time Magazine's radio show took this and reported that "Rosenthal climbed Suribachi after the flag had already been planted. . . Like most photographers, Rosenthal could not resist reposing his characters in historic fashion." Thus, confusion was born. But Rosenthal, who received a Pulitzer Prize for the picture of the raising of the second flag, always maintained the picture was not staged, and the film to which you refer, which was made cotemporaneously with Rosenthals' picture, shows that the flag raising was not a restaging.

I'm looking forward to the movie.

LaneSig · #4 10-20-2006, 01:03 PM

I read the book this summer. I was interested because one of my uncles fought at Iwo Jima. He was only 18 or 19 years old.

Just a note: The famous picture wasn't actually a re-staging. It was the second flag raised for a reason: A high-ranking officer decided that he wanted the first flag that was raised, so this group of guys were raising a second flag. Read the book - especially this section. The photographer talks about how the elements were just perfect for this pic.

_Opi_ · #5 10-20-2006, 01:14 PM

My history is a little off..did this happen before or after they nuked the Japanese?

MysticCat · #6 10-20-2006, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaneSig

A high-ranking officer decided that he wanted the first flag that was raised, so this group of guys were raising a second flag.

True, and thanks -- I neglected to mention that point. It was the Secretary of the Navy, James Forrestal, who was present and wanted the flag. When his desire for the flag was relayed to the battalion commander, it was not taken well. With appropriate profanities, he declared that the flag belonged to the battalion. He decided to get it for the battalion before anyone else got it for Forrester, so he sent an officer to get a replacement flag. Included in the instructions were "make it a bigger one."

ETA: Both the flags are now in the Marine Corps Museum in Washington.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Opi_

My history is a little off..did this happen before or after they nuked the Japanese?

Before. (February of 1945, with the bombings in August of that year.)

ASUADPi · #7 10-20-2006, 01:24 PM

I heard on the news this morning that one of the men was from Arizona. They (the news station) won't actually be talking about it until this evening, so I'll have to watch the 5 o'clock news. I guess the man actually lost a battle to alcohol (shrugging my shoulders since that is what the news said). They mentioned his name very briefly but I didn't catch it.

I'm looking forward to seeing this movie since I'm a huge ww2 buff.

MysticCat · #8 10-20-2006, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASUADPi

I heard on the news this morning that one of the men was from Arizona. They (the news station) won't actually be talking about it until this evening, so I'll have to watch the 5 o'clock news. I guess the man actually lost a battle to alcohol (shrugging my shoulders since that is what the news said). They mentioned his name very briefly but I didn't catch it.

That would be Ira Hayes, a Pima Indian from the Gila River Indian Community. He did suffer from survivor guilt, depression and alcoholism after the war.

A song about him, The Ballad of Ira Hayes, was recorded by Johnny Cash in 1964.

ASUADPi · #9 10-20-2006, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticCat

That would be Ira Hayes, a Pima Indian from the Gila River Indian Community. He did suffer from survivor guilt, depression and alcoholism after the war.

A song about him, The Ballad of Ira Hayes, was recorded by Johnny Cash in 1964.

Thanks

SydneyK · #10 10-20-2006, 02:57 PM

I've heard that the monument in DC depicting this scene has 13 hands (two of each of the six men (obviously), plus the hand of God). Has anyone else heard this? Is it true or just a myth?

MysticCat · #11 10-20-2006, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SydneyK

I've heard that the monument in DC depicting this scene has 13 hands (two of each of the six men (obviously), plus the hand of God). Has anyone else heard this? Is it true or just a myth?

Some people say that if you look at the monument from exactly the right angle, you can see a 13th hand, but it's urban legend.

LaneSig · #12 10-20-2006, 03:59 PM

There is a great back story about the man who is closest to the ground. But, I don't want to ruin it for those of you who haven't read the book or plan to see the movie. But, it's really a great story.

RACooper · #13 10-20-2006, 09:20 PM

Well, just got back from seeing it... and I gotta say that it wasn't the movie I was expecting at all. The film was great, but don't go expecting a gung-ho or yeah America picture - the film deals more with the personal story of those who raised the flag.

Anyways Eastwood did a very interesting job of examining the meaning of "hero" as well as the use of propaganda and heroes - and the impact this has on some "unfortunate" enough to be a hero.

The most memorable scene for me and others watching the film (without spoiling anything for anyone) would be the "cake scene"... I hope you all understand when you see it.

Finally one of the generals mentioned that Eastwood was planning/hoping to do a follow-up to the film dealing with the Japanese side "Letters from Iwo Jima" - I hope he goes through with it.

#14 10-20-2006, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaneSig

There is a great back story about the man who is closest to the ground. But, I don't want to ruin it for those of you who haven't read the book or plan to see the movie. But, it's really a great story.

I was able to finish the book during the earthquake/power outage. I must say that all the men had interesting backgrounds leading up to the flag raising, and I can't wait to see the movie. I'm particularly interested in seeing the portrayal of their Sgt. Mike Strank.

Drolefille · #15 10-21-2006, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RACooper

Well, just got back from seeing it... and I gotta say that it wasn't the movie I was expecting at all. The film was great, but don't go expecting a gung-ho or yeah America picture - the film deals more with the personal story of those who raised the flag.

Anyways Eastwood did a very interesting job of examining the meaning of "hero" as well as the use of propaganda and heroes - and the impact this has on some "unfortunate" enough to be a hero.

The most memorable scene for me and others watching the film (without spoiling anything for anyone) would be the "cake scene"... I hope you all understand when you see it.

Finally one of the generals mentioned that Eastwood was planning/hoping to do a follow-up to the film dealing with the Japanese side "Letters from Iwo Jima" - I hope he goes through with it.

Letters from Iwo Jima is opening in Japan (not sure of the date) but will eventually be in the US w/ subtitles.