Hazing question

[UNFSigmaChi]

Ok way back in the Fall '98 when i was pledging we had a couple of the chapter alum that used to hang out with the chapter often.
Well something they used to do was make a pledge light a match and recite things(standard, creed etc.) before the match burned you. This happened to me and several other pledgebro's but none of us think this was hazing cause you could always throw the match away before it burned you, and it always gave you enough time to finish and then some. Like i said, i don't believe i was hazed cause it honestly makes you learn the material better cause the first few times you do it your thinking i gotta get this out quick before i burn myself, but unless you were a total screw up you never did. I think because that happened is why i can recite anything about my organization quickly and accuratly today. Now this hasn't happened to any pledge class since mine, but there are a couple of guys this fall that don't know there stuff so to speak. Not saying i would do this but what do you guys think about it...do you think its hazing. I personally don't, but i'd like some feedback on this. Thanks.

[parrotthead]

im a pledge right now and we do somethin like that only one of the brothers will light a match and we like might say the alphabet before it burns out, I dont consider it hazing, I dont think its that big of a deal, I mean like you said, its a good way to help memorize something. I guess thats from my perspective.

[NUPE4LIFE]

Okay Sigma Chi guy, I have to teach you a thing or two about DISCRETION. Just because you don't think that what you did was hazing doesn't mean that nationals or any other body with Sigma Chi's best interest at heart won't. As far as nationals is concerned, anything not included in the ritual and intake manuals shouldn't be done. I'm not scolding you for the event that took place. What I am scolding you for is the fact that you put it out for public display. You never know who is reading this board. Your screename doesn't help in disgusing you either. UNFSigmaChi? Would that be the University of North Florida? I'm from Jacksonville. We greeks know that there are time honored traditions that each chapter has. Some might be considered hazing by outside parties, others may not. But we don't help any when we talk about things that happened to us during our pledge process, especially over the internet. Then we complain when nationals crack down on our chapters for hazing and take all of our time honored traditions away. I know of what I speak. I have had a similar experience that I won't go into. It wasn't me, but it was others so I'm too familiar of situations like this. And trust me, if it comes down to a chapter or the entire national office the chapter will lose out everytime. I'm saying all of this to say that discretion is the key.

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KAPPA ALPHA PSI FRATERNITY, INC.
SPR 97
XI LAMBDA

[This message has been edited by NUPE4LIFE (edited December 20, 2000).]

[UNFSigmaChi]

Hey Kappa....i didn't say i did that, i said it happened to me. And yes i go to the Univ of North Florida. Are you a kappa there? you know dude, it happened like over 2 years ago and by an alumnus and i really don't think that me saying that hurts sigma chi. Im just asking what other people think about it. Im a memeber of the fraternity and if i wanna talk about it then i will. If you don't wanna talk about what happened to you then thats cool man i respect your standpoint. Hey if you go to UNF...whatever happend with the basketball game between us last year. We never got a response from you guys....i know you'd kill us but it would be fun to play some bball. Peace

I don't know if I'm at liberty to say if it's hazing or not. A lot of people have their opinions on how far is TOO far, and I'm not really up for debate anyway.

Still, my chapter understands that everything done for ritual purposes goes by the book. When our chapter was colonized we had to get approval from nationals to wear muumuu (traditional Hawaiian female attire) for special events instead of white dresses that the rest of the chapter wears. We do ritual that all chapters do (I hope!)according to what is set forth by nationals. Again, I'm not telling you what to do, but you might think twice about the match procedure.

NUPE-is it okay for him to discuss the match lighting thing if it's not included in national fraternity ritual? Or is it because it's considered chapter ritual? I'm confusing myself I think.

[This message has been edited by OohTeenyWahine (edited December 20, 2000).]

[OhioState_TriDelt]

I think he is saying that he is publicly admitting to hazing (if the act disclosed is deemed to be considered hazing) and therefore making his chapter's practices know

(or something like that)

[DeltAlum]

Got to agree with Nupe on this one. Good advice.

I've heard of this match thing for years -- generally you had to say the Greek alphabet (sometimes twice) before the match burns down. Personally, I don't see anything sinister about it -- but in our culture you never can tell what will offend whom.

DeltAlum

[SkipRock]

With hazing, especially in this situation, it is all about perception. You being the pledge/new member may not feel hazed, but it still could be percieved as hazing by another member of an organization. Furthermore, it does not matter if the member wants to be hazed or treated in a certain way, it still can be considered hazing in some eyes. Best bet, don't drop the H-bomb. Once you mention that you guys were hazing, or might be, it will spread like wild fire. Rumors, gossip, hearsay about an organization hazing, not good. Even if it is as harmless has what you have mentioned.


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David Treat
Lambda Chi Alpha
University of Nebraska at Omaha

[CutiePie2000]

Originally posted by UNFSigmaChi:
what do you guys think about it...do you think its hazing.

UNFSigmaChi, you solicted opinions as to what we thought, so here's mine:

I don't know if I would go so far as to deem that "hazing", but this activity is certainly a slippery slope and a "gray" area.

That being said, even though it is a teeny tiny match, the fact remains that someone still could get physically burned (even if it is a small minor burn), so this activity does have a risk of harming someone. Also, to an extent, the person holding the match is under a minor amount of "stress"/duress/mental discomfort.

Here is part of an excerpt from the stophazing.org website:
Hazing is defined by the FIPG (Fraternity Insurance Purchasing Group) as:
"Any action taken or situation created, intentionally, whether on or off fraternity premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort"... I would imagine that this activity is verging towards the arena of "mental" discomfort.

So, my answer is fairly non-commital. I guess the question you and your brothers need to ask yourselves is "Would Nationals revoke our charter over this if they found out about us doing this?". If the answer is "yes", you need to give serious consideration as to whether it is "worth it" and whether you should continue or cease this activity. (Oh another thing, aren't you guys kind of worried about burning your house down by accident? I'm just thinking of the poor TriDelta Ladies who had a fire.....)

And there you go!

[TriSig]

This whole hazing issue is such a difficult subject for me. Nationals for Tri Sigma like you talks about the whole "anything that can cause physical or mental stress or harm.." I think this is a good ploicy but it is taken to an extreme most of the time. For example, there are other organizations on my campus whos pleges, or associate members, have to perform interviews for a certain percentage of the active chapter to aid in the get to know you process. I personally do not feel that interviews are a negative thing, they would help to promote unity and knowlege of the persons to which you are going to be bound. But I also believe that those interviews should not restrict the ability of a new member to be initiated. Anyway back to my point, Tri Sig nationals feels that interviews are hazing, thus we do not do them, and thus we initiate girls into our chapter that really do not know us and we do not really know them, this sucks. I personally feel that the hazing issue is taken to far extremes. Matches, I think there are better ways to get people to learn the material. Some orgs I have talked to say that they have their pleges come through the back door and call them sir "blah blah blah" because it teaches them respect. Don't you guys think that they should respect you because they want to be part of the org, not because you force them too. Fraternaties and Sororities should represent the best of the men and women in this country and be based on respect that is mutal, trust that is earned, and honor that is greater than any other.

Let me know what you think. Sigma Tri

[UNFSigmaChi]

Thanks for the honest responses guys. Thanks for all the input. We don't have a house here at UNF cause greeks aren't allowed to have them so burning down a house isn't possible :-) And no part of our initiation practices isn't making pledges recite things while holding a match lol. Like i said in my first post it hasn't happened since i was a pledge back in 98 cause the alum that did it moved to south florida but i was just wondering what you guys's opinions of it were. A lot of guys in our chapter talked about it awhile back and said there's no point in bringing it back cause of the "gray area" in the whole matter. But as far as the discretion thing....dude this is a greek message board, if you can't discuss what you feel you need to discuss then whats the point in having it ya know?! But if it sounded like this still happens in my chapter or i personally wanna do it to a pledge, sorry it sounded that way but it doesn't and i wouldn't. Just wanted some other greeks opinions.

[UNFSigmaChi]

And no ohio state tri-delt i don't and have never hazed. My chapter doesn't haze in the slightest. Just wanted to clear that up. UNF Sigma Chi's don't haze...now another fraternity chapter on my campus is under investigation for it but we won't go there right now! =)

[Tom Earp]

I get very tired of hearing about the political correct thing. We have GLO and BLGO on this site. I am a GREEK whether Black,White,Male,or Female. I had many friends in Black Fraternities and women in Soroitys. In the eyes of the immediate world we are all drunken sots that haze. This as we all know is BS!!!!!!!! I work hard for my Frathernity as all of you do for yours. Every time someone mentions having a pledge or Associate Member do something it is hazing. The last iniation I attended, a newly iniatiated Brother tipped a jug and started drinking on his own until several of us put a stop to it. Bad press is news, good press goes on the back page if there at all. There is a yahoo site that I check dailey and some female was lambasting LXAS. She talked about racist pigs, ect. We have brothers from diffrerent religions and ethnic backgrounds. They are my Brother and will always be no matter what! I learn from them as I do from you being on this site. The wheel of life turns and sometimes you are on the top and sometimes on the bottom. If not for the Greeks on campus, there would be a lot of less imput!!

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Tom Earp LX Z#1
Pittsburg State U. (Kansas)

[prospectiverushee]

I also have to agree with Nupe. There are a lot of prospective memebers(such as myself) who come to this board a lot. Now if they read about this match thing,they are going to get the wrong ideal. I know that all greeks on this board are striving to show the positive aspects of the greek community,but this post is not helping.

I'm not try to bash anybody,but just wanted you all to be mindful that there are impressionable prospects out there. There are also some impressonable anti-greeks out there who only need this post to cause trouble.

[AXO Alum]

Originally posted by NUPE4LIFE:
Just because you don't think that what you did was hazing doesn't mean that nationals or any other body with Sigma Chi's best interest at heart won't. As far as nationals is concerned, anything not included in the ritual and intake manuals shouldn't be done. I'm not scolding you for the event that took place. What I am scolding you for is the fact that you put it out for public display. You never know who is reading this board.

I'll have to throw in a ditto on this one. I don't think you should take it personally, UNFSigmaChi - but you've been on here long enough to see how trouble can start with the slightest thing. If its something you would not do with the president of your organization (ie, the President of the entire organization) there to witness, then its not something that you should discuss on a public forum.

This is kind of like a comment made on another thread that I suggested be edited for content. The person realized where I was coming from and edited it - not because I was trying to come down on the person as a personal attack, but because it makes greeks as a whole look questionable. I know that the match thing is common, but that doesn't make it right --- especially in the eyes of people who are already looking for ANYTHING to start trouble over. IMHO I think you should edit the post, or delete it entirely. This just isn't something that should be discussed in a public forum. No harm or disrespect intended.