Does this 14 year old belong in the adult legal system?

KillarneyRose · #1 11-19-2005, 01:51 PM

Please read this Baltimore Sun column if you choose and give your opinion on the situation. Should the boy be charged as an adult or as a juvenile? I would especially be interested in hearing from those of you who believe he should be considered a juvenile because this didn't really delve much into the judge's reasoning beyond the system being frightening for a 14 year old. Thanks!

So Circuit Judge Clifton J. Gordy thinks that sending a 14-year-old accused of murder into the adult system would be "frightening," does he?

If Gordy wants to talk about what's frightening, maybe he should live among the law-abiding residents of the neighborhood that boy - and his cohorts in the gang known as "Cutthroat" - allegedly terrorized....

Here's the rest...

AGDee · #2 11-19-2005, 02:56 PM

Generally, there is a reason that young people can't drive until they're 16/17/18 (depending on the state), vote until they're 18, serve in the military, smoke, etc. It's because, developmentally, their brains are not developed enough to make good decisions. Now, of course a 13 year old (he was 13 when this happened) knows that killing is wrong/against the law, etc. Does he really realize what death is? At 13, many have had no experience with the finality of death. They definitely live in a "it can't happen to me" world and make poor decisions based on that. I worked with a 17 y/o girl who finally got out of a gang after THREE of her "best friends" were killed in gang warfare and it dawned on her that this wasn't so great. She had tear drops tatooed on her arm, one for each of the gang members who'd been killed. It took her a couple years to wake up.

At 13, many of these kids, in a different environment, would be able to be rehabilitated. The gang serves as a family for these kids, most of whom don't have a "real" family that they can rely on for protection and guidance. They are getting their guidance, protection, love and a sense of belonging from a very convoluted group. In order to get that, they learn to be violent toward others. It's a complex thing, psychologically.

An adult prison is not set up to deal with or rehabilitate these types of kids, but juvenile facilities are, if they are good. Sending him to an adult prison is only going to ensure that he is sexually abused, made to feel more isolated in society and learn more bad skills so that when he gets out, he is more equipped to perform more crimes.

I'm not opposed to the author's last coment though...

"What I will do is offer an alternative: Why not charge the 14-year-old as an adult and, if he's found guilty, let him remain in a juvenile facility until he's 18? Then he can be transferred to an adult facility to finish the balance of his sentence. If that sentence makes him eligible for parole in, say, 20 years, he could apply when he's about 34 years old, with the rest of his life ahead of him. "

I think that sending him to a juvenile facility until he's 18 and then EVALUATING whether he is ready to return to society or not, and sending him to an adult facility if it is deemed that he isn't ready would be the best option in a case like this.

Intense1920 · #3 11-19-2005, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AGDee
I'm not opposed to the author's last coment though...

"What I will do is offer an alternative: Why not charge the 14-year-old as an adult and, if he's found guilty, let him remain in a juvenile facility until he's 18? Then he can be transferred to an adult facility to finish the balance of his sentence. If that sentence makes him eligible for parole in, say, 20 years, he could apply when he's about 34 years old, with the rest of his life ahead of him. "

I think that sending him to a juvenile facility until he's 18 and then EVALUATING whether he is ready to return to society or not, and sending him to an adult facility if it is deemed that he isn't ready would be the best option in a case like this.

I agree with this. Sending him straight to an adult facility could ultimately make him a MORE dangerous person when released.

hoosier · #4 11-19-2005, 05:29 PM

Is there a mechanism for spending ages 14-18 in juvey, and 19+ in adult prison?

I know in GA there isn't. The most a juvey can be sentenced (even for murder) is until he/she is 18. It's 18 and out, so prosecutors/judges tend to push the hard core cases into big boy court so a realistic sentence is possible.

Big boy prison does have a wing or floor for juveys, though, so they will be beaten, tormented, and loved by people of their own age.

Rudey · #5 11-19-2005, 06:48 PM

Send him to fight in Iraq.

-Rudey

AGDee · #6 11-19-2005, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hoosier
Is there a mechanism for spending ages 14-18 in juvey, and 19+ in adult prison?

I know in GA there isn't. The most a juvey can be sentenced (even for murder) is until he/she is 18. It's 18 and out, so prosecutors/judges tend to push the hard core cases into big boy court so a realistic sentence is possible.

Big boy prison does have a wing or floor for juveys, though, so they will be beaten, tormented, and loved by people of their own age.

They are doing this with a kid who was 11 when he committed murder in Michigan.. Nathaniel Abraham. He was the youngest person to ever be tried as an adult and it made national headlines. He was convicted as an adult of second degree murder, but the judge sentenced him to a juvenile facility until the age of 21, but he is being evaluated beginning at age 18 to determine readiness for release. Our big boy prisons don't have any wings or floors for juveniles that I know of.

KillarneyRose · #7 11-19-2005, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AGDee
They are doing this with a kid who was 11 when he committed murder in Michigan.. Nathaniel Abraham. He was the youngest person to ever be tried as an adult and it made national headlines. He was convicted as an adult of second degree murder, but the judge sentenced him to a juvenile facility until the age of 21, but he is being evaluated beginning at age 18 to determine readiness for release. Our big boy prisons don't have any wings or floors for juveniles that I know of.

I think that idea makes perfect sense. I guess that Maryland doesn't do that because if there was ever a case that called for it, it's this one.

AGDee, do you think that trying the Baltimore boy as a juvenile will send the wrong message to other members of his gang? It's apparently established that the adult gang members are using the juvenile ones to sell drugs, etc. Do you think now they'll start to feel like they're untouchable because all they have to do is use a kid to do all of their dirty work, including knocking someone off?

It's a scary situation.

AGDee · #8 11-19-2005, 09:31 PM

I think they need to aggressively pursue the adults involved. However, going to juvie (in Detroit anyway) isn't exactly a picnic. I've heard a lot of horror stories about it. Besides, if they did it my way, they would have a chance of ending up in adult prison also, so they wouldn't be getting away with anything, really.

That type of thing has been going on for years though. At the first children's psych unit I worked (1988-91) we had an 11 year old patient who was a drug runner. They were using kids for this back then because they knew that they would face lesser penalties. To get the kid OUT of the situation (he wasn't comfortable with it, although the $400 a week was nice for his family) the family had to completely relocate and he stayed with various relatives, moving often, so he wouldn't be found. I think when they're paying kids of that age that much money to do their dirty work for them, the kids aren't going to think about long term consequences. They've got to go after the adults. If you hire a hit man to kill someone, they can still charge you with conspiracy to commit murder. When you've got a poor inner city kid whose family doesn't have food, clothes or heat, he's going to go for the money. Those are the types of kids I always saw targeted.

honeychile · #9 11-19-2005, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AGDee
I'm not opposed to the author's last coment though...

"What I will do is offer an alternative: Why not charge the 14-year-old as an adult and, if he's found guilty, let him remain in a juvenile facility until he's 18? Then he can be transferred to an adult facility to finish the balance of his sentence. If that sentence makes him eligible for parole in, say, 20 years, he could apply when he's about 34 years old, with the rest of his life ahead of him. "

I think that sending him to a juvenile facility until he's 18 and then EVALUATING whether he is ready to return to society or not, and sending him to an adult facility if it is deemed that he isn't ready would be the best option in a case like this.

I can get behind this idea, although I would keep him in the juvenile facility until he's 21 if possible (as in many states). I suppose I should state that I don't think that most prisons actually reform, and I'm not sure if a truly criminal mind can be reformed.

AGDee · #10 11-20-2005, 07:54 AM

I agree that some can't be reformed. Usually you can tell by whether they are capable of feeling guilt or remorse. I definitely worked with some kids whose only remorse or guilt was related to whether they were CAUGHT or not. Others show genuine guilt and remorse for the effects of their actions. I think that's part of what you would evaluate in determining whether they should be released at a later age. The ones who were sociopathic were truly scary and sometimes ended up on our psych unit before they did anything that was actually criminal. After getting to know a kid, you could pretty much tell which way they were.

Kohlberg has clear phases of moral development which also can be looked at. This link describes them well. If someone gets stuck at 1 or 2, they probably won't rehabilitate.
Kohlberg's phases

James · #11 11-21-2005, 05:22 AM

No no and no.

Society has an oddly skewed view of the world. A 14 year old female can't understand sex enough to give unconditional consent, but a 14 year old boy can understand death enough to commit murder and be treated as an adult . . .

He is defined as a child and should stay as a child.

I think a lot of people get caught up with the horrific nature of the crime and think: This person must be punished.

But that doesn't change the fact that he person is defined as a child in all ways that matter.

Also i find it curious that its usuallly minority male children that prosecutors want to try as an adult and put in jail forever as ooposed to females or white children.

I suppose that black children are so much more mature than their female or white male counterparts that they are basically adult years before?

honeychile · #12 11-22-2005, 10:48 PM

Does anyone else think that there should be a facility especially for violent teen offenders? Those who are say, 10-18 years old but have committed horrendous crimes?

I hate to see "unreformable" teens put in with younger "delinquents", yet I don't think they should be put in with the truly criminal element at that age. They would only learn more troubles to try by being with the older people, or teach the younger if with them.

And James, a 14 year old girl can get an abortion in most states without telling her parents - I would hardly call that not having "unconditional consent". A 14 year old of either sex who doesn't understand the finality of murder is pretty sad to begin with.

James · #13 11-23-2005, 05:09 AM

Well right or wrong you can generally have an abortion even before you can legally have sex. . . shrug.

Its my understanding that a lot of times the decision to try someone as an adult is politically or publicity motivated.

How do we know if a 14 year old child is unreformable? Are we saying they are mentally ill somehow?

Quote:

Originally posted by honeychile
Does anyone else think that there should be a facility especially for violent teen offenders? Those who are say, 10-18 years old but have committed horrendous crimes?

I hate to see "unreformable" teens put in with younger "delinquents", yet I don't think they should be put in with the truly criminal element at that age. They would only learn more troubles to try by being with the older people, or teach the younger if with them.

And James, a 14 year old girl can get an abortion in most states without telling her parents - I would hardly call that not having "unconditional consent". A 14 year old of either sex who doesn't understand the finality of murder is pretty sad to begin with.