Public Education

[Exquisite5]

I am curious. Why do you think we have public education? Do you think the purpose is still timely? Should it be abolished and just give vouchers to everyone? Sincerely, curious...

[Coramoor]

I think everyone should have to pay for their education. That way those that value it will go, and those that don't value it won't go and can take the place of the illegal immigrants that everyone bitches about taking our jobs.

[Exquisite5]

Does this mean you think the indigent should just not go to school? Do we just relegate poor children or children with selfish parents to a life of crime or poverty?

[hoosier]

Originally posted by Exquisite5
I am curious. Why do you think we have public education? Do you think the purpose is still timely? Should it be abolished and just give vouchers to everyone? Sincerely, curious...

I'd like to see vouchers given a major trial.

Many of our public schools have gotten so politically correct that real learning is sacrificed. Locally, at Cross Keys HS, in the midst of major bunches of Latinos, Asians, etc. (probably 25% white), they have almost monthly festivals celebrating the holidays of Mexico, Korea, Japan, Hawaii, etc. The greatest American holiday, Christmas, is totally ignored. Not a tree in the building.

Vouchers might also be a way to trim the power of the Teachers Unions - a school might attract some students by advertising "we are an independent school, and our teachers do not choose to belong to the NEA or AFT.

[Exquisite5]

Originally posted by hoosier
I'd like to see vouchers given a major trial.

Many of our public schools have gotten so politically correct that real learning is sacrificed. Locally, at Cross Keys HS, in the midst of major bunches of Latinos, Asians, etc. (probably 25% white), they have almost monthly festivals celebrating the holidays of Mexico, Korea, Japan, Hawaii, etc. The greatest American holiday, Christmas, is totally ignored. Not a tree in the building.

Vouchers might also be a way to trim the power of the Teachers Unions - a school might attract some students by advertising "we are an independent school, and our teachers do not choose to belong to the NEA or AFT.

I actually agree with you here, but for a different reason. I am just tired of poor children being forced to attend failing schools. I think when a school reaches a level of failure vouchers should be optional for every student zoned to that school (those attending that school and those already in private school). However, I think the voucher amount should not simply be the amount the state spends on education in the failing school, but 75% of the cost of the private school.

This will do two things 1) give poor students an actual opportunity to use a voucher b/c often they are for an amount to small to actually help them go to a good private school and 2) enourace the state to not let a school reach failing status b/c they know if it does they will be handing out vouchers in amounts that far exceed what they would have paid for the students to attend the public school.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by hoosier
I'd like to see vouchers given a major trial.

Many of our public schools have gotten so politically correct that real learning is sacrificed. Locally, at Cross Keys HS, in the midst of major bunches of Latinos, Asians, etc. (probably 25% white), they have almost monthly festivals celebrating the holidays of Mexico, Korea, Japan, Hawaii, etc. The greatest American holiday, Christmas, is totally ignored. Not a tree in the building.

I always thought that the 4th of July or Thanksgiving were the great American holidays... whereas Christmas being one of the great Christian holidays.

[AchtungBaby80]

Originally posted by Coramoor
I think everyone should have to pay for their education. That way those that value it will go, and those that don't value it won't go and can take the place of the illegal immigrants that everyone bitches about taking our jobs.

There's actually a group that wants to abolish public education. I forget what they're called--maybe someone can help me out?--but my education professor this summer was talking about it. But I get the impression that their motivation is more to keep the lower classes from getting education and therefore any power...

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Exquisite5
I actually agree with you here, but for a different reason. I am just tired of poor children being forced to attend failing schools.

I'm really torn on vouchers. I'm not sure they wouldn't have the effect of making the great schools more crowded and the bad schools worse.

[Kevin]

I think our public education system needs a major overhaul. Someone somewhere had a pertient comment (can't remember the source) that we still have a sliderule education system in a world full of calculators. I tend to agree.

The teachers' unions have a valid complaint - they don't get paid enough in many states for the work that they do. That said though, I don't think that teachers' unions give a crap about a quality education, just that the teachers that they represent have a good work environment.

I'm not sure about the voucher system. Might work depending on the specifics.

Here in Oklahoma City, we have a pretty robust Charter School System. A Charter School is a school that although it is still a public school it is given a lot more autonomy, less funding per pupil, however. Parents are allowed to pull their kids out of their regular schools and put them into charter schools. They don't cost anything, and there's no admission requirement as far as IQ, grades, etc. but most require some kind of time donation from the parents. My fiancée teaches at a charter school that requires 50 hours of service from their parents each year (although, I understand that they make exceptions when the parents are total bums).

-- the school she teaches at is as I understand around 40% white.

Charter schools are able to require a lot more academically of their kids. In my fiancée's school, all classes are AP classes, the class does not slow down for people who 'just don't get it', they routinely flunk kids and do not pass them on to the next grade unless they actually do the work, but they do have this thing called AVID to help kids who otherwise would not be college bound due to their background prepare for college.. Behavior problems are given the boot. Their API score (how schools are ranked here) is as high as the best schools in the richest suburbs.

Charter schools as far as I have seen are the best answer in urban areas. As far as rural areas go, no easy answer, but here in Oklahoma, a little district and school consolidation could go a long way.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
I'm really torn on vouchers. I'm not sure they wouldn't have the effect of making the great schools more crowded and the bad schools worse.

How are you not sure about that? It's pretty much a given...

-Rudey

[HelloKitty22]

The problem with vouchers is that private schools generally can't be forced to take students. What would presumably happen is that students would bring their vouchers to private schools; the private schools would cherry-pick the best students; and the worst students, who presumably need the most educational help, would be left in the bad school. If you made open admission a condition of the voucher program, the best private schools would never join. They already have tons of students who want to get in, even without a voucher program.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by HelloKitty22
The problem with vouchers is that private schools generally can't be forced to take students. What would presumably happen is that students would bring their vouchers to private schools; the private schools would cherry-pick the best students; and the worst students, who presumably need the most educational help, would be left in the bad school. If you made open admission a condition of the voucher program, the best private schools would never join. They already have tons of students who want to get in, even without a voucher program.

Not really.

Private schools are a business, just like the many private colleges.

There will be enough private schools to accomodate the children.

-Rudey

[hoosier]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
I'm really torn on vouchers. I'm not sure they wouldn't have the effect of making the great schools more crowded and the bad schools worse.

One of the givens for vouchers is school capacity. Good school X has classrooms suitable for 800 kids. There are 500 neighborhood kids who go there based on housing, so there are 300 spots for voucher kids.

Kid #301 and up have to go somewhere else.

Other schools would seek these Kids, and might say "give us a try - we are upgrading to attract more voucher kids by strengthening our foreign lang. program, requiring more math, instituting a 'if you're absent more than 5 days, you flunk' policy", or what ever they choose and whatever they think will attract voucher kids.

If a school reaches capacity, it gets full compensation from the school bd. for all 800 kids.

If a school is unable to attract the 800 kids, and only has 700, the school loses the money and has to eliminate four teachers and two coaches and two cooks, cuts back on fancy uniforms for the football team and cheerleaders, etc. It is also motivated to come up with plans and programs that will attack more kids next year.

It's worth a try.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by hoosier
One of the givens for vouchers is school capacity. Good school X has classrooms suitable for 800 kids. There are 500 neighborhood kids who go there based on housing, so there are 300 spots for voucher kids.

Kid #301 and up have to go somewhere else.

Maybe. It would be just as likely, I think, to either overcrowd the school. or start seeing "mobiles" (school room trailers) spring up in the parking lots.

Our kids went to a very fine school system and graduated from a "new" high school -- which was overcrowded within five years of opening. It has since been expanded, but bricks and mortar are expensive -- and as it grew, the standards went down.

That's not necessarily something that will happen everywhere, but it's certainly a concern to me.

[hoosier]

(At my charter school, filled with voucher-waving kids, this won't be a problem)


Group gives schools 'F' on condom availability



BY ELLEN YAN
STAFF WRITER

November 4, 2005

Students have problems getting condoms and health advice at NYC high schools, where the health curriculum fails to reflect updated lessons on AIDS, a community nonprofit said Thursday.

The Community HIV/AIDS Mobilization Project has sent out more than 60 student activists on a "Find the Condom In Your Schools" campaign, asking them and their recruits to request condoms from staff and survey peers on condom accessibility. The results are to be released later this month.

"If you spend most of your time at school, I think that's where the condoms should be," said Bailey Ramos, one of the campaign's activists and a sophomore at Martin Luther King Jr. High School for Arts and Technology. "If you go to the store in your neighborhood, you're afraid of your parents finding out or 'What if they tell this person?'"

In the last 18 months, the majority of high schools -- 212 out of about 380 -- did not order condoms and schools that did got a total of 320 boxes, each with 1,000 condoms, according to the Department of Education's response to a Freedom of Information request filed on behalf of the nonprofit.

Sarah Howell, the nonprofit's program coordinator, said that translates to 1.4 condoms per sexually active student, a "drastic and dangerous shortage." (According to a federal 2003 survey, 48 percent of city high school students are sexually active.)

"Students don't have the tools they need to have to protect themselves from HIV and sexually transmitted diseases," Howell said. "New York City has historically been a focal point of the AIDS epidemic, and what that means is that the Department of Ed and the city has a huge responsibility to students."

Education officials said the group's calculations do not take into account the condoms ordered more than 18 months ago. Condoms have expiration dates but the shelf life of an average one is about five years.

DOE officials said schools carry condoms as needed because the chancellor's regulations from 1981 require schools to give out condoms upon request, unless the student's parents chose to opt out of this service.