Debates on the New Pope

[sugar and spice]

On request from the other thread, I thought I'd move all potentially controversial material here so those who just want to celebrate can do it in the other thread without interruption.

Here's my post from that thread:
Assuming the new pope stays true to his conservative roots, I worry about the route the church is taking. By selecting a conservative pope, the church is essentially sweeping a number of problems (condom use in Africa, the priest shortage, European Catholics becoming less and less religious, etc.) under the rug instead of addressing them. I think we're at the place where the church needs to work with its members (especially European ones) instead of against them, and a conservative pope will be less likely to do that. And in terms of relations with the rest of the world, popes in the near future will probably need to reach out to Muslim leaders the way John Paul II reached out to Jewish leaders.

Hopefully this new pope chose his name for a reason, and he does plan on working towards unification.



Feel free to discuss this, the Hitler Youth , or anything else you think might be controversial about the new pope, the direction of the church, or Catholicism in general.

[Rudey]

Are you Catholic?

-Rudey

[sugar and spice]

I'm not religious, but many of my family members (including my mom) are Catholic, and therefore it's something I'm supposed to have an opinion on for dinner table discussions.


But as we concluded in a previous thread about Catholicism, the pope has more influence over the world than the leaders of most countries, so the political opinions he holds affect more than just Catholics.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
I'm not religious, but many of my family members (including my mom) are Catholic, and therefore it's something I'm supposed to have an opinion on for dinner table discussions.


But as we concluded in a previous thread about Catholicism, the pope has more influence over the world than the leaders of most countries, so the political opinions he holds affect more than just Catholics.

Well things you mention like "European Catholics becoming less and less religious" is something really about the religion and not the world. I would assume it would be Catholics that cared and wanted to provide direction to their own faith.

That is different from the Pope trying to break down the USSR which influenced non-Catholics.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
Assuming the new pope stays true to his conservative roots, I worry about the route the church is taking. By selecting a conservative pope, the church is essentially sweeping a number of problems (condom use in Africa, the priest shortage, European Catholics becoming less and less religious, etc.) under the rug instead of addressing them. I think we're at the place where the church needs to work with its members (especially European ones) instead of against them, and a conservative pope will be less likely to do that. And in terms of relations with the rest of the world, popes in the near future will probably need to reach out to Muslim leaders the way John Paul II reached out to Jewish leaders.

Hopefully this new pope chose his name for a reason, and he does plan on working towards unification.

I think it's important not to fall into the media created mental trap of the term "conservative" - conservative or liberal means many different things politically or theologically, outside of the NA media definition of conservative or liberal...

Further it is important to remember that all of the Cardinals are to some extent conservative - they represent, promote and defend teachings that are on the whole "conservative" (or maybe better: traditionalist).

Pope Benedict XVI has in his late career as Cardinal, became a strong proponent of some of the "core" teachings of the Church - teachings that are controversial or "problematic" for segments of the faithful... such as Brith Control. A "conservative" theologian will take the defense of life (or as JP2 termed it the "culture of life") to the philosophical and theological extension throughout society - ie. all life comes from God, and ending or preventing a life is interfering with God's design - this extension precludes the use of "artifical" birth control....

Feel free to discuss this, the Hitler Youth , or anything else you think might be controversial about the new pope, the direction of the church, or Catholicism in general.

As for Benedict's membership in the Hitler Youth or the German Army... it was mandatory membership and service - service that he deserted when he got the chance... so I don't see why it is an issue.

[citydogisu]

http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/04/041905newPope.htm

A nun who was ordered by Ratzinger to stop ministering to gays and lesbians called his election to pope "devastating" for those who believe the Catholic Church needs to be more tolerant on social issues such as homosexuality.

Sister Jeannine Gramick said the choice of Ratzinger, who as the Vatican's guardian of doctrine silenced her and Father Robert Nugent in a 1999 order, will likely prevent the church from "moving into the 21st century and out of the Middle Ages."

"It does not bode well for people who are concerned for lesbian and gay people in the church," she said.

Gramick was a co-founder of New Ways Ministry in 1977 to provide educational programs for gay and lesbian Catholics nationwide.

She is no longer associated with the group, but its executive director, Francis DeBernardo, said Ratzinger "is the lightening rod for anger at the church by gay and lesbian people."

"Today, the princes of the Roman Catholic Church elected as Pope a man whose record has been one of unrelenting, venomous hatred for gay people," said National Gay and Lesbian Task Force executive director Matt Foreman.

"As a long-time Catholic from a staunchly Catholic family, I know that the history of the church is full of shameful, centuries-long chapters involving vilification, persecution, and violence against others. Someday, the church will apologize to gay people as it has to others it has oppressed in the past. I very much doubt that this day will come during this Pope's reign. In fact, it seems inevitable that this Pope will cause even more pain and give his successors even more for which to seek atonement."

[PhiPsiRuss]

Much of the press on Ratzinger leading up to this itimated that he is some kind of nut.

The man that I saw today seemed like a man who is at peace with himself, and with his world. I probably disagree with him on a most issues, but he strikes me as a good man.

[citydogisu]

Someone emailed me this, I think it's going to far, but good for a laugh while feverishly writing term papers.

[valkyrie]

Okay, this is kind of related -- so there are some who think the Catholic church should become more, I don't know, progressive and change with the times. There are others who disagree.

Keeping in mind that I'm not Catholic, can someone explain to me why the church should be expected to change? I mean, if you're Catholic, shouldn't you behave according to the rules as they exist now? If you don't agree with much of what the church as a whole has to say on various issues, would you be better served to find a different religion with which you actually agree?

I'm not trying to be a smartass but I want to understand this.

[Kevin]

I won't give my opinion based on one issue. It might be a major issue for some, but not for me. When it comes to Popes, I think JPII was a good man, and a great Pope. Sure, he had some positions, e.g., birth control that I didn't agree with him or the church on, but who agrees with anyone on everything 100% of the time?

From what I've seen and heard, Benedict XVI will be an asset to the church.

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by valkyrie
Okay, this is kind of related -- so there are some who think the Catholic church should become more, I don't know, progressive and change with the times. There are others who disagree.

Keeping in mind that I'm not Catholic, can someone explain to me why the church should be expected to change? I mean, if you're Catholic, shouldn't you behave according to the rules as they exist now? If you don't agree with much of what the church as a whole has to say on various issues, would you be better served to find a different religion with which you actually agree?

I'm not trying to be a smartass but I want to understand this.

I had this same conversation with my friend, who is Catholic. She felt the same way. She didn't feel the church should have to change, and if you don't agree with it, don't believe in it. I also agree, but it would be interesting to hear what others have to say.

[amycat412]

Originally posted by valkyrie
Okay, this is kind of related -- so there are some who think the Catholic church should become more, I don't know, progressive and change with the times. There are others who disagree.

Keeping in mind that I'm not Catholic, can someone explain to me why the church should be expected to change? I mean, if you're Catholic, shouldn't you behave according to the rules as they exist now? If you don't agree with much of what the church as a whole has to say on various issues, would you be better served to find a different religion with which you actually agree?

I'm not trying to be a smartass but I want to understand this.

I think its that the world has changed tremendously, yet the Church has not. And in order to remain relevant and solvant, some (including my family) feel that the Church should reach out to its more modern members and embrace them. Rather than, for example, as stated in previous posts, ordering Catholic ministries to stop helping homosexuals.

[Rudey]

There is the church and there is a political structure that comes with the Vatican; the latter should change with the times...

-Rudey

[ISUKappa]

Originally posted by amycat412
I think its that the world has changed tremendously, yet the Church has not. And in order to remain relevant and solvant, some (including my family) feel that the Church should reach out to its more modern members and embrace them. Rather than, for example, as stated in previous posts, ordering Catholic ministries to stop helping homosexuals.

While I agree that the world has greatly changed, even since the time of Vatican II, from my understanding, most of the fundamental doctrines of the church that people have issues with are taken straight from the bible (no women preists, pro-life stance, etc). Those things will probably not change, not matter how much people would like them to.

Other things may be more open to change, such as the marriage of preists. Either way, change is going to take a long, long time.

But I'm not Catholic, so really, what I think doesn't matter.

[kddani]

Originally posted by ISUKappa
While I agree that the world has greatly changed, even since the time of Vatican II, from my understanding, most of the fundamental doctrines of the church that people have issues with are taken straight from the bible (no women preists, pro-life stance, etc). Those things will probably not change, not matter how much people would like them to.

Other things may be more open to change, such as the marriage of preists. Either way, change is going to take a long, long time.

But I'm not Catholic, so really, what I think doesn't matter.

But we've seen, even here on GC, that the Bible can be twisted and perverted to support pretty much any point.

If the church wants to stay relevant and keep young people active and practicing (and, cough cough, donating money), it needs to adapt. Many young men and women in America are raised Catholic, probably went to Sunday school and all that, but when they reach adulthood do not remain practicing Catholics. Taking such a hardline against certain issues, and not even debating them or considering them or taking baby steps is not helping.

A lot of people that I know that may have been raised Catholic have converted to some other form of Christianity, because those churchs are offering them something the Catholic church is not. Be it their stance on hot button issues, or even a more modern approach to religious services, outreach, and activities.

I think it will be interesting to see what happens over the course of our lifetime within the Catholic church